Dutch Convoy in the North Atlantic, 1963 - new beta for testing

[Mgellis]

A new scenario for your testing pleasure...

It's 1963 and the world is at war. A Dutch convoy is trying to make it across the Atlantic to Boston, where tankers and cargo ships will be loaded with necessary supplies for the war effort.

As always, please let me know what you think. Obviously, a convoy mission like this one will operate at a fairly slow pace a lot of the time, but I've tried to provide enough challenges and surprises to make it worth your while. Feedback on the strengths and weakness of the scenario (how does it play? is it challenging enough? are all the little details like how the orders are written and what planes you have available handled properly?) is welcome. What can I do to make this a better, more fun, and more challenging scenario?

Thanks in advance.

[version 2 uploaded 11:20 CST 8/8/2021]

[HalfLifeExpert]

Just downloaded it to have a quick look (i'm already awake way later than normal for me), I now know what my weekend project is!

Thanks Mark!

[Patmanaut]

Another scenario by Mark! I'm going to play it right away.
Thanks!

[BDukes]

On my list for this weekend too!

Mike

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've got it running right now. Gotta get those freighters to Boston!

Just wanted to inquire: Is there anything stopping me from redeploying my 4 Sea Vixens to the Karel Doorman? I know they won't be able to re-arm, but I'd like a close by strike option against that surface raider threat.

[Randomizer]

Just wanted to inquire: Is there anything stopping me from redeploying my 4 Sea Vixens to the Karel Doorman? I know they won't be able to re-arm, but I'd like a close by strike option against that surface raider threat.

Pretty gamey exploit since it is unlikely that the Sea Vixen pilots would be qualified for operations off Doorman, if the carrier's flight deck crews could service Sea Vixens or if the catapult, bridles and arrestor wires could be adjusted for them. Of course in CMO none of these matter but in the real world, country A's aircraft just don't operate of country B's carriers on a whim. Particularly if the aircraft type has no in-service counterpart in country B's navy. Your call I suspect...

-C

[HalfLifeExpert]

I suppose it could be considered 'gamey', but I did look up Dutch carrier aircraft in a book I have, and the Karel Doorman did operate Sea Hawk Fighters before being re-designated as an ASW carrier in 1962. The Sea Vixen does have a longer wingspan than the Sea Hawk, but still shorter than Doorman's Trackers. This is of course before Folding wings are accounted for.

Doorman originally operated 10 Sea Hawks, I've only got 4 Sea Vixens. There seems to be plenty of deck/hanger space for the 4 Sea Vixens onboard Doorman. I've got the Vixens armed with SNEB Rockets, so not a heavy bomb load. Enough to put a damaging first strike on any Soviet Surface Raiders that find the convoy. Hopefully enough to allow them to be subsequently beaten off by bomb armed Trackers and the cruiser De Ruyter.

I'll do this under the assumption that the transition to ASW carrier was recent enough that some of the training/personnel onboard Doorman have enough experience to pull off taking aboard a small number of British carrier fighters, given that the two navy's carrier forces used similar aircraft and ships for quite a while.

It's WWIII and military expediency will be assumed to overcome these technicalities, but I'll play fair and wait till daylight.

[Randomizer]

It's less size than weight.

Seahawk MTOW ~16,150 lbs
S2 Tracker MTOW ~23,450 lbs
Sea Vixen MTOW ~46,750 lbs

This means that the catapult, bridles, hold-back devices and arrestor wires will be handling a plane twice as heavy as any in Dutch service. Typically carriers require refits before operating any heavier aircraft. Doorman became the Argentine 29 de Mayo and she needed major work before she could operate the A4 Skyhawk and again before she could handle the much heavier Super Entenard.

With sims like CMO, you bring your realism with you, or not as you like.

-C

[Randomizer]

@Mr. Gellis,
Interesting fleet problem with a couple of minor nits to pick.

- In 1964, tankers should probably be Valiants rather than Victors. At this time the latter still had a strategic nuclear role, equipped with Blue Steel standoff missiles. Also, St Mawgan is an RAF base but the Buccaneers and Sea Vixens are Fleet Air Arm assets and should probably be based out of nearby RNAS Culdrose. Buccaneers also had buddy stores and would likely be preferred refuelling platforms for Fleet Air Arm support.

- The carrier in the convoy poses real-world navigation problems since it must make frequent course and speed changes when operating aircraft. Also escorts would need to function as plane guards and so would be racing around the merchants inviting collisions. Submit that it is far more likely that the carrier would operate independently with an organic escort group to provide cover rather than close escort of the convoy.

Of course CMO does not require carrier manoeuvres in support of flight ops so keeping it within the convoy works in the game but in real life, it would probably entail too many navigation risks to operate as it is in the scenario.

Just thoughts, disregard as desired.

-C

[stww2]

Playing through this one now; the Soviet cruisers were dispatched in fairly short order and I'm realizing that even at fire speed crossing the Atlantic at 12 knots takes a long, long, time, even at fire speed. I'm a couple days in so far; have encountered one sub which managed to get past the ASW aircraft screen and open fire with torpedoes (it was the torpedoes that I first detected), fortunately unguided torpedoes are easy to dodge when detected at range and I subsequently got my first ASW rocket kill in Command!

The main suggestion I have so far is to find a way to make the Soviet cruisers a bit trickier to deal with. This could be as simple as making the intelligence the player receives on them in the briefing more ambiguous, but perhaps there are more elaborate methods that would work.

Given the time length of the scenario, an argument could be made that sustained ops should be used for some or all of the bases, but I imagine this might well be unworkable from a gameplay standpoint.

On a less substantive note, the two Cannon class frigates both have the same name.

[stww2]

About midway across the Atlantic, a sub managed to get inside the screen. Its torpedoes missed but the anti-ship missiles on some of its nearby comrades were rather more problematic. Three cargo ships and a frigate were lost and the carrier was heavily damaged and sunk a short while later. The torpedo-launching sub was detected (initially by surface-search radar, incidentally, which was activated when the inbound missiles were detected) and subsequently destroyed by two helicopters, but with the carrier sinking and out of range of land-based ASW air cover, the missile launching subs could not be pursued.

No further losses were suffered and the convoy arrived at Boston with about 1d20hr remaining. Final score was 800 (Minor Victory).

Overall I enjoyed this one. It was a bit monotonous at times but that's the nature of ASW warfare and therefore I don't really count that against it. In additional to the comments in my above post, my one additional suggestion would be to amend the scoring so that the player is rewarded for each merchant ship that arrives safely, rather than simply for each type of merchant that arrives.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've entered Day 3 of the transit to Boston. Only one Soviet contact so far: A Zulu class sub whose periscope/snorkel wake was visually spotted by one of Doorman's helos. Easy air-dropped torpedo kill. This was way out of torpedo range of any ships.

No sign of those surface raiders yet, but I've launched the Buccaneers in two plane patrols to look for them.

Wish me luck as my ships enter the old Black Gap of the Central Atlantic


Update: Day 4: HNLMS Zeeland picks up a sub on active sonar. Helo engages. Torpedo misses. Zeeland re-engages with ASW Rockets after re-acquiring contact, dangerously close to the merchants. two salvos kill the sub, a November.

Update again: Day 5: The surface raiders spotted south of the Convoy. Air attacks launched. The 4 Sea Vixens I had redeployed attacked the cruisers with Zuni Rockets. All score hits, but two Vixens are shot down from AAA. The other two return to Doorman, out of the fight as they can't rearm. I also get a Zuni Armed Tracker to make an attack run. Zunis hit a cruiser, but Tracker is shot down. Then the Buccaneers (two of which had to land at Loring AFB after a search) attack as two separate pairs. They score bomb and rocket hits, but the Cruisers remain afloat and stationary. Dutch Cruiser De Ruyter is detached from the convoy and sinks both cruisers without suffering any return fire.

[Mgellis]

Very useful comments. Thank you.

I can switch out the tankers. That should be pretty simple.

Also, I can swap out the Sea Vixen for Seahawk fighters.

As for the carrier, that too can be set up without too much trouble. Perhaps I'll use the cruiser as the convoy lead ship and split the escorts between the actual convoy and the carrier. I can also tweak the position of the submarines so it will be harder to tell whether they'll go after the merchants or the carrier group.

Do you have any suggestions on how many escorts the carrier should have and how many the 15-ship group of merchants should have. (I can always add one or two more if need be.)

I'll wait for HalfLifeExpert to give his final report on the first version and then get the second version worked up and posted.

Thanks again.

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

@Mr. Gellis,
Interesting fleet problem with a couple of minor nits to pick.

- In 1964, tankers should probably be Valiants rather than Victors. At this time the latter still had a strategic nuclear role, equipped with Blue Steel standoff missiles. Also, St Mawgan is an RAF base but the Buccaneers and Sea Vixens are Fleet Air Arm assets and should probably be based out of nearby RNAS Culdrose. Buccaneers also had buddy stores and would likely be preferred refuelling platforms for Fleet Air Arm support.

- The carrier in the convoy poses real-world navigation problems since it must make frequent course and speed changes when operating aircraft. Also escorts would need to function as plane guards and so would be racing around the merchants inviting collisions. Submit that it is far more likely that the carrier would operate independently with an organic escort group to provide cover rather than close escort of the convoy.

Of course CMO does not require carrier manoeuvres in support of flight ops so keeping it within the convoy works in the game but in real life, it would probably entail too many navigation risks to operate as it is in the scenario.

Just thoughts, disregard as desired.

-C

[Randomizer]

I think that one should take a leaf from the WW2 convoys to Russia book when organizing this operation from a Dutch standpoint and I think that some tweaking of the Player side might benefit the Player's situation from a standpoint of what may reasonable for this type of situation.

- It's 1963, and the Dutch Navy only landed the Seahawks in late 1960 but as far as I can tell, they remained in naval service for several more years but operating from land bases. It's probably not too much of a stretch to restore them to Doorman's air group, a squadron of ten was typical. A simple addition to the scenario description and or briefing could rationalize this inclusion. In any case this removes the gamey exploit of operation the RN Sea Vixens off of a Dutch Carrier, which probably cannot operate them without extensive modifications. Doing this gives the Player a modest, ASuW strike capacity and basically increases the value of the carrier to the Player.

- De Ruyter should stay with the carrier as part of a cover force. Leaving her with the convoy adds another high-value unit that may act as a submarine magnet but also requires the attention of escorts to protect her. Escorts defending the cruiser are not defending the convoy and here the lessons of the Arctic convoys come into play. Note that no gun ships ever sailed as close escorts, they always operated independently with their own organic escorts to cover not escort the merchants. So I would suggest keeping the cruiser with the the carrier using sufficient escorts to allow the cruiser to detach and close with the convoy at speed if her guns are required.

- Perhaps consider adding air cover from North America, CP-107 Argus from RCAF Station Greenwood or USN P-3 Orions from Brunswick NAS would likely meet the convoy around the mid-ocean area. The Netherlands still used the P-2 Neptunes at this time and these might supplement the RAF Shackletons for the eastern part of the transit.

- Strengthening the Player allows for an increase in the submarine threat. May I suggest a Juliet or two plus a couple of Project 615 Quebec class boats to replace the long-rang Foxtrots near Europe The latter may be moved further west.

- Please consider adding biologicals to the mix. There's a discussion on the pros and cons of this elsewhere in the Forum.

- I suspect that enforcing submarine realistic submarine communications on the AI means that submerged boats in contact cannot communicate and this probably is really beneficial for the Player. Turning off this feature should make the Players problems a bit greater.

- Am surprised that none of the Friesland ASW destroyers made it into the Dutch forces. I suspect that there may be an date-error/typo in the CWDB as according to my 1970-71 Jane's Fighting Ships, all eight came into service between 1956 and 1958 and so should be available for your scenario.

Your scenarios are always a treat to play and obviously the counterfactuals can be shaped as desired. Looking forward to the final product, whatever it looks like.

-C

[HalfLifeExpert]

ORIGINAL: Mgellis


Very useful comments. Thank you.

I can switch out the tankers. That should be pretty simple.

Also, I can swap out the Sea Vixen for Seahawk fighters.

As for the carrier, that too can be set up without too much trouble. Perhaps I'll use the cruiser as the convoy lead ship and split the escorts between the actual convoy and the carrier. I can also tweak the position of the submarines so it will be harder to tell whether they'll go after the merchants or the carrier group.

Do you have any suggestions on how many escorts the carrier should have and how many the 15-ship group of merchants should have. (I can always add one or two more if need be.)

I'll wait for HalfLifeExpert to give his final report on the first version and then get the second version worked up and posted.

Thanks again.

Apoligies for failing to make any further reports.

I've not completed the scenario yet, but the Convoy is just about parallel south of Newfoundland. I reloaded a save a couple times as what seems to really kill me are the AShMs from at least one Whiskey Long Bin. It's really cross your fingers and pray to the RNG whether you will lose the Karel Doorman to one of those missiles.

I believe that if I can somehow survive those missiles with minimal losses, I can safely get the merchants to Boston.


I agree with adding Sea Hawks instead of Sea Vixens. The justification in the briefing could be that they are 2nd line reserve aircraft being brought back out for the war with reservist pilots, but still up to the player of whether or not to deploy them on Karel Doorman.


I think it would be best to keep all the ships together in one convoy. I did have concerns that my ship based sonar was Active only, but I'm not sure if that should be changed or left alone as a challenge.

I also think some more or different MPAs should be in US/Canada. The Neptunes don't have good enough range to me.


I think that's all I have to say for now.

[magi]

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

@Mr. Gellis,
Interesting fleet problem with a couple of minor nits to pick.

- In 1964, tankers should probably be Valiants rather than Victors. At this time the latter still had a strategic nuclear role, equipped with Blue Steel standoff missiles. Also, St Mawgan is an RAF base but the Buccaneers and Sea Vixens are Fleet Air Arm assets and should probably be based out of nearby RNAS Culdrose. Buccaneers also had buddy stores and would likely be preferred refuelling platforms for Fleet Air Arm support.

- The carrier in the convoy poses real-world navigation problems since it must make frequent course and speed changes when operating aircraft. Also escorts would need to function as plane guards and so would be racing around the merchants inviting collisions. Submit that it is far more likely that the carrier would operate independently with an organic escort group to provide cover rather than close escort of the convoy.

Of course CMO does not require carrier manoeuvres in support of flight ops so keeping it within the convoy works in the game but in real life, it would probably entail too many navigation risks to operate as it is in the scenario.

Just thoughts, disregard as desired.

-C

Well said......

[Randomizer]

More pedantic nonsense for your consideration.

Long ago somebody from the Harpoon community (I think one of those who went on to become part of the CMANO/CMO team) produced a rather detailed OOB spreadsheet for the Soviet Navy by year (1950 to 2003), type, class, name, and Fleet. Have checked it against other sources where possible and the data seems pretty solid. Sadly neither of the Soviet cruisers in the scenario were in the Northern Fleet in 1963 and so highly unlikely to appear in the North Atlantic.

Cruiser Chkalov was in the Baltic Fleet, getting her through the Kattegat, Skagarrak, North Sea and GIUK Gap might be problematic.

Cruiser Admiral Senyavin was in the Pacific Fleet. In 1968 she would begin a several year refit there to make her the fleet flagship including helo capacity and SAMs.

The following cruisers were based in the Northern Fleet in 1963, all Project 68bis Sverdlov type:

Zheleznyacov, Aleksandr Nevskiy, and Murmansk. Cruiser Admiral Ushakov transferred from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet sometime during this time frame and so may have been available.

No WW2 era cruisers or the older Project 68K ships were still in service with the Northern Fleet in 1963.

-C

[Gunner98]

Although not the easiest site to use and decipher, this is a good and seemingly reliable source for Soviet/Russian ships

http://russianships.info/eng/

[Mgellis]

Just uploaded version 2 with some of the recommended changes. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

[CommandPB]

Hi Mark

I'll download and give it a run through