WITP: Logistician's Edition - Linus (J) vs Xenxen (A)

[RedTeamFred]

ITAKLinus,

I have to say this is one of the most remarkable AARs I've ever read. I don't know if you still visit this AAR, but I've just spent the last few days with my mouth open at the speed and application of force you accomplished as Japan. Bravo!

Of course, many players go to lengths to understand and maximize the oil/resources HI/LI aspect of the game, as well as calculating risks regarding areas to bypass and assets/areas to invade. But this is a whole new level for me to see. It's remarkable. My hat's off to you. I'm going to bookmark it for a slow read and analysis in my game future for sure.

XENXEN, I personally think you needn't be so hard on yourself for conceding the game. After many years reading these AARs, I've come to believe people are much too quick to voice their disapproval when someone who, in their opinion, "quits the game early."

I say so be it, live and let live, learn from the experience and move on. I'm certainly not a fan of, say, forcing someone to sit through a real thrashing just to allow me the satisfaction of seeing the success of my plans; especially in a situation like here, where you clearly see the futility of future efforts for a very long time to come. It's probably best you both move on and find new opponents. As I said, what Linus has done here is remarkable, exceptional. I haven't seen planning and play like this by Japan since Admiral Laurent, Olorin, or koniu. In the face of such play: no harm, no foul. I think at some point, it's ungentlemanly NOT to allow you to concede gracefully.

Fred

[XENXEN]

I do not have regret for stopping the game only starting it with out more of the anti exploit HR and a better understanding of my opponents wish for gameplay style.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: RedTeamFred

ITAKLinus,

I have to say this is one of the most remarkable AARs I've ever read. I don't know if you still visit this AAR, but I've just spent the last few days with my mouth open at the speed and application of force you accomplished as Japan. Bravo!

Of course, many players go to lengths to understand and maximize the oil/resources HI/LI aspect of the game, as well as calculating risks regarding areas to bypass and assets/areas to invade. But this is a whole new level for me to see. It's remarkable. My hat's off to you. I'm going to bookmark it for a slow read and analysis in my game future for sure.

XENXEN, I personally think you needn't be so hard on yourself for conceding the game. After many years reading these AARs, I've come to believe people are much too quick to voice their disapproval when someone who, in their opinion, "quits the game early."

I say so be it, live and let live, learn from the experience and move on. I'm certainly not a fan of, say, forcing someone to sit through a real thrashing just to allow me the satisfaction of seeing the success of my plans; especially in a situation like here, where you clearly see the futility of future efforts for a very long time to come. It's probably best you both move on and find new opponents. As I said, what Linus has done here is remarkable, exceptional. I haven't seen planning and play like this by Japan since Admiral Laurent, Olorin, or koniu. In the face of such play: no harm, no foul. I think at some point, it's ungentlemanly NOT to allow you to concede gracefully.

Fred

Fred, thank you very much for the kind words. I am really thankful.

It's been a quick and brutal game. Organization and a clear strategic posture always win matches: I simply didn't expect this to finish so early.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: XENXEN

Hi

As I said in the reply im sorry I wasted your time starting this game I should have read the HR discussion better and been more clear in my writing. Also i should have stopped the game when you landed in Mersine and port moresby on day one but it is more then 10 years since i have run in to those trick from a opponent and when you never showed up at PH i should have stopped it there or when you started with the stratosphere zero sweeps. I must be more clear with the HR in my next game

It was not fair that i just stopped playing when i realised that you were going for India in January with no chance of defending it. It was a waste of your time and not really a nice thing to do but i am surprised that you never really caught on to that fact that i was flying cap at 1000 feet and that My units more or less stopped moving for 30+/- turns

Again im sorry for this and i hope you find a new opponent that fits to you play style

You should have let him know much sooner.[:-]

Even if you lost most if not all of India, you could comeback from that.

The bold part is false. I have saves from the game proving that, also. Moreover, the surrender came only after I complained that the "no 4E in NavB" HR has been violated.


RJ, I agree that a comeback is possible after India is lost, but it's admittedly very difficult.

I have another game in which I conquered the whole India plus China and which ended in April 1944. I restarted from Jan-1944 as allied with a new top-notch player taking the japanese side and I'm struggling immensely even though the US fleet/army are more or less intact. A comeback is possible but in 1943 and keeping China in my opinion. Later than that, it's quite complex if the Japanese player doesn't have a mental breakdown.

Moreover, the quality of play that makes you conquer India and makes the other player lose it, is not lost once the conquest of India is completed. To state it in other words, it's almost impossible that a player who is unable to defend India and loses it badly is then able to be skilled enough to turn the course of the war.

In the aforementioned game, when I was still playing as Japanese, I embarked in a massive industrial plan which was meant to give me 20.000 modern a/c in the pool by June 1944 and an astonishing amount of older models as well. Not to speak of the Ki-94-II arriving in Sept/Oct 1944. Etcetc.

[ITAKLinus]

PaxMondo, AlbertN, Bif1961

Thank you all for the support. It's been a shame the match ended so soon but what can I do? [:D][:D]

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: XENXEN

Hi

As I said in the reply im sorry I wasted your time starting this game I should have read the HR discussion better and been more clear in my writing. Also i should have stopped the game when you landed in Mersine and port moresby on day one but it is more then 10 years since i have run in to those trick from a opponent and when you never showed up at PH i should have stopped it there or when you started with the stratosphere zero sweeps. I must be more clear with the HR in my next game

It was not fair that i just stopped playing when i realised that you were going for India in January with no chance of defending it. It was a waste of your time and not really a nice thing to do but i am surprised that you never really caught on to that fact that i was flying cap at 1000 feet and that My units more or less stopped moving for 30+/- turns

Again im sorry for this and i hope you find a new opponent that fits to you play style

What kind of "tricks"? I play well, you don't. That's the bottom line.

Basically stating that I accomplished what I did accomplish during the match due to "tricks" etcetc is an interesting way to deal with failures on all fronts.

ORIGINAL: XENXEN

I do not have regret for stopping the game only starting it with out more of the anti exploit HR and a better understanding of my opponents wish for gameplay style.

If an enemy doesn't do what you want him to do is an "exploit"? That's interesting. I'd be glad to know whether, as Japanese player, I could define 'using US CVs' as an "exploit". Or maybe I should start seeing as an "exploit" using allied 4Es?

Just out of curiosity, it might lead to the discovery of an interesting stream of thought.

ORIGINAL: XENXEN
Yes I know I should never have started the game at all.

And a come back would not have been any fun for anyone it would have been years of sitting around and then the allied would have just rolled over Japan with stratosphere sweeps, 4e bombers and fletcher hoards and that would be even less fun for anyone.

That's your thought. Given the performance in losing both India and a good chunk of China in less than 70 turns, I'd be surprised of any "rolling over Japan" even in 1947.

Moreover, waiting for years shows, per-se, a very limited understanding of the possibilities of the allied side. Not to mention an extremely poor strategic posture.

[xen]

As i write it was my Fault that i did not put in more HR's. Without the House rules the game will not work if the play styles are to different and our style were very different. I'm not saying they were wrong but some play to win as fast as they can and some want a long game with many challenges.

In all the time i have played this game i have seen many tricks/tactics/exploits (there are many names for them) "the Fortress Palembang". The landing at Mersing. Peace in china. Ignoring the Philippines. Super Sweeps. Low alt 4e bombing. Supercharge A/c production. R And D Zero before time. Carrier Expand zero group to max. One ship task force. Merchant-ship anti carrier patrols. The 100% air search bombing. The Fletcher hoard.

And many many more. Most of them are just historical unrealistic others are game breaking. That is why HR are used. The reason some are see as exploits are be course they break the game like the Fortress Palembang when it was discoverer allot of games were ruined by that and most games had HR that stopped that. The same with not moving ships around Singapore until it is captured or no landing at Mersing is to prevent early access to India since it is mostly undefended during the start of the war.

Sorry but if you look at some of the last Air battles over Australia you will see the super low flying cap i was trying to see if CAP ALT still had a say in the game.

Now since you call me a Bad player i assume you can tell me how you would defend India against 8 divisions+ with around 1 divisions worth of points. The first understrength div just came a few days after the invasion. This is why many will play historical games to prevent early blobs of infantry.

I'm not calling you a cheat or a bad player and i am taking the responsibility for not insisting on more HR or declining to start the game.

[RangerJoe]

All of those "tricks" have both counters and costs. Check out this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 4&#5053106

[BBfanboy]

Complaints that imply your opponent was not playing fairly are painful to see - very unsportsmanlike in my opinion. Such concerns should be exchanged between players off-line - by Private Message or E-mail.

When you have reached an understanding of each other's point of view, it can be shared as a disagreement about choice of tactics or strategy, but attacking someone's personal integrity is sure to lead to a flame war, which benefits no one.

[xen]

I'm not sure what you are on about. I Have stated that I take responsibility for the ending of the game and for starting it in the first place. I said our play style do not match not the anyone's play style is "wrong".

It looks more like you are trying to start a "flame war".

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: xen

I'm not sure what you are on about. I Have stated that I take responsibility for the ending of the game and for starting it in the first place. I said our play style do not match not the anyone's play style is "wrong".

It looks more like you are trying to start a "flame war".

Certain words like 'trick' are loaded with meanings that imply underhandedness. I was communicating how some of the discourse on both sides struck me as too personal and would be better handled behind the scenes. You do not have to agree with me, but I put it out there to let you know my impression in case it might help cool the situation a bit.

Your response indicates you did not appreciate it, so I will exit the discussion and leave you to sort it out yourselves.
Best wishes for both of you.

[xen]

I said tricks/tactics/exploits. They are difficult to define. To some they are one thing and to others they are something else.

When a AAR is made, then it is public and all are welcome to comment

It was not that i appreciate or not. I simply corrected what was misunderstood and responded to accusations of "very unsportsmanlike" behavior and "Private Message or E-mail" was tried but this was were the comments were made.

This is after all just a game and i have no problem with you or your commenting on it but i must also be allowed to reply

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Complaints that imply your opponent was not playing fairly are painful to see - very unsportsmanlike in my opinion. Such concerns should be exchanged between players off-line - by Private Message or E-mail.

When you have reached an understanding of each other's point of view, it can be shared as a disagreement about choice of tactics or strategy, but attacking someone's personal integrity is sure to lead to a flame war, which benefits no one.

Precisely what I think.


Moreover, I said literally nothing when the match has ended: there was no need at all to start commeinting with the various "tricks" "expoilts" etcetc; especially in the context of a community such as ours.

[xen]

Precisely what I think.


Moreover, I said literally nothing when the match has ended: there was no need at all to start commeinting with the various "tricks" "expoilts" etcetc; especially in the context of a community such as ours.

Oh i think you need to read what was posted in this forum thread.

To be fair, surrendering as the allies after 70 turns is quite bad. Seems like I'm very unlucky in picking opponents.

I would say i am not the one "commenting" about other players skill level and i have never said anything about cheating. As to the words "Trick" it do not mean cheating. I have from the first post i made in this AAR (an aar i was not informed about and only found after the game ended) said i stopped the game be course of different play styles and what the difference were. I never said there were cheating or that rules were broken. And i have take FULL responsibility for the mistakes made starting to play the game.

When you start a AAR on the forum and make comments you must expect reply's to those comments

So here is the summery of my posts

I stopped the game
I take responsibility for accepting the House rules
I stopped it be course of different and no compatible play styles not wrong ones.
No one cheated and in my opinion the opponent were not playing badly.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: xen

Precisely what I think.


Moreover, I said literally nothing when the match has ended: there was no need at all to start commeinting with the various "tricks" "expoilts" etcetc; especially in the context of a community such as ours.

Oh i think you need to read what was posted in this forum thread.

To be fair, surrendering as the allies after 70 turns is quite bad. Seems like I'm very unlucky in picking opponents.

I would say i am not the one "commenting" about other players skill level and i have never said anything about cheating. As to the words "Trick" it do not mean cheating. I have from the first post i made in this AAR (an aar i was not informed about and only found after the game ended) said i stopped the game be course of different play styles and what the difference were. I never said there were cheating or that rules were broken. And i have take FULL responsibility for the mistakes made starting to play the game.

When you start a AAR on the forum and make comments you must expect reply's to those comments

So here is the summery of my posts

I stopped the game
I take responsibility for accepting the House rules
I stopped it be course of different and no compatible play styles not wrong ones.
No one cheated and in my opinion the opponent were not playing badly.

To me, surrendering after 70 turns is bad. Everyone's play style is different, none of them are wrong unless they cheat. The word "Trick" implies that what was done is not correct. Too bad for you, you could have learned more from this game.

[xen]

To me, surrendering after 70 turns is bad.

Then i have played against allot of bad players if that is true

Too bad for you, you could have learned more from this game.

No. I have played this type of game many times before as both side and i have learned that it is not the kind of game i want to play.

[Mercenary]

How could he land at Port Moresby on the first day?!

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Mercenary

How could he land at Port Moresby on the first day?!

A magic move TF that somehow was not spotted which would have alerted the Allies . . .

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Mercenary

How could he land at Port Moresby on the first day?!

A magic move TF that somehow was not spotted which would have alerted the Allies . . .

Precisely