Surface Combat TF size?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Several discussions in AARs left conventional wisdom as recommending no more than 10ish for good surface combat fighting, although the official impacts are at 15 and 25 as stated. The 10 ship thing is anecdotal but seemed supported by the fact that ships in bigger TFs failed to engage often.

Even more important was TF composition. Matching speeds and, critically, main gun ranges for TF capital ships was demonstrably better per the collective wisdom, articulated best by Nemo's excellent posts on the matter.

I use an even dozen as my optimum target size for a SAG and 15 for my carrier TFs while they operate with two carriers in the early war period and hold to the 25 maximum after I start putting three or more carriers in each CAG in mid '43.

However, there are too few destroyers to go around in the early period so many SAGs operate with 6-8 ships.

There likely is no correct size, just what feels right and performs well for any given player.
Experience is the best determinant.

[Lowpe]

Old topic...and the answer depends.[:)]

Multiple small task forces can really perform well...under the right circumstances as can a fully loaded taskforce with 25 ships.

You have your goal, your likely opposition (both air and sea) to plan for, your stance (offensive, defensive) in addition the quality of your leaders, fuel and ammo and search capability to all plan for that makes no stock answer correct.

[Moltrey]

Just remember... larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.

Sometimes, that is what you desire!

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.

Sometimes, that is what you desire!

True....GP

[Nomad]

And of course sometimes the size and composition of a TF depends on what you have available at that location. It is not always possible to create the perfect TF.

[rustysi]

And on, and on, and on....

But its still fun to talk about.[;)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

And on, and on, and on....

But its still fun to talk about.[;)]

Lowpe is an expert at small TF night combat missions, especially, and gets a lot out of all ships. As he says, it depends, but it is fun to debate.

I'd add that low moonlight, heavy weather, favors multiple smaller TFs one fewer larger ones. Daylight, good visibility favors well composed TFs of medium size in an offensive roll. Defensively sometimes it's good to stack up to 15-20 ship to hope that your functional BBs/CAs don't end up without escorts when damaged are detached.

It's a lot of personal play style and how you fit with your opponent as well. Post surface battle air strikes are a huge factor and eat up detached and damaged ships in daylight. .

[Tanaka]

More good info thanks guys! I'm done with 25 ship task forces too many collisions!

[Trugrit]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

More good info thanks guys! I'm done with 25 ship task forces too many collisions!

You might rethink “Done” at some point.

And….I don’t want new players to get the Idea that a 25 ship surface combat TF is useless.

Veteran Players often use “combine and Split” tactics.
A 25 ship surface combat TF can split into two or more TF’s.

As lowpe and obvert pointed out it depends on the situation.

[Lowpe]

Nice post showing a relatively advanced topic.[&o] Having a large task force gives you lots of staying power with respect to ammunition handling.

Not mentioned is the restriction on sighting intel. Naval Search will only report 9 ships and sometimes less. If you in the past have run around with small taskforces, it is a way to really make a crafty approach.

Also the larger task forces are better against enemy airplanes. Want to see some carnage in the air is to send a large Fletcher task force in to draw an air strike! Even better if you can get some long legged LRCAP over them...

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Nice post showing a relatively advanced topic.[&o] Having a large task force gives you lots of staying power with respect to ammunition handling.

Not mentioned is the restriction on sighting intel. Naval Search will only report 9 ships and sometimes less. If you in the past have run around with small taskforces, it is a way to really make a crafty approach.

Also the larger task forces are better against enemy airplanes. Want to see some carnage in the air is to send a large Fletcher task force in to draw an air strike! Even better if you can get some long legged LRCAP over them...

Also make sure that the TF has some ship captains that can command task forces effectively so you can then break it apart and cause just a little mischief! After 24 Fletchers shoot down the enemy aircraft, think of 8 ASW TFs running back to a base, attacking the subs that someone sent their way.

[Trugrit]

Yep,

Combine and split can also be one of those mysterious phenomenons
that sometimes rattle a new player.

He detects a Task Force on one turn and on the next turn he sees
Two more Task Forces that appear out of thin air.

He may jump on the forum and definitively state that the
game or the search engine is broken.

[Tanaka]

Staying power, extra ammo, extra AA, sneaky splitting...ok you guys have convinced me. 25 can be situationally good. Just wish I knew how to prevent those collisions...Alfred says leaders will not help...

[Trugrit]

Sneaky splitting?

There are more things in heaven and earth and in witp-ae Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


Sneaky splitting?

There are more things in heaven and earth and in witp-ae Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

More good info thanks guys! I'm done with 25 ship task forces too many collisions!

You might rethink “Done” at some point.

And….I don’t want new players to get the Idea that a 25 ship surface combat TF is useless.

Veteran Players often use “combine and Split” tactics.
A 25 ship surface combat TF can split into two or more TF’s.

As lowpe and obvert pointed out it depends on the situation.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Staying power, extra ammo, extra AA, sneaky splitting...ok you guys have convinced me. 25 can be situationally good. Just wish I knew how to prevent those collisions...Alfred says leaders will not help...

Put rather large rubber bumpers and fenders on those ships.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Staying power, extra ammo, extra AA, sneaky splitting...ok you guys have convinced me. 25 can be situationally good. Just wish I knew how to prevent those collisions...Alfred says leaders will not help...

Put rather large rubber bumpers and fenders on those ships.

When the USN doubles their order for rubbers, their wives are going to be very suspicious ...

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Staying power, extra ammo, extra AA, sneaky splitting...ok you guys have convinced me. 25 can be situationally good. Just wish I knew how to prevent those collisions...Alfred says leaders will not help...

Put rather large rubber bumpers and fenders on those ships.

When the USN doubles their order for rubbers, their wives are going to be very suspicious ...

Those are to put on the muzzles of the guns, at least for the naval infantry when they invade.