Shore bombardment is too powerful

[Flaviusx]

I thought it still worked outside of ports, though. You have that whole coastline to work with.

[Harrybanana]

I agree that show bombardment is too powerful. But if it the effectiveness of shore bombardment is reduced than you have to increase the effectiveness of air units. Otherwise it will be almost impossible for the Allies to invade a well defended coastline or advance up the coast of Italy as they did historically.

[sveint]

.

[sveint]

Feels like cheating:

[Flaviusx]

While I agree it is probably a little too good for these noninvasion attacks, the Italians do have to be positioned to respond (and discourage) this and vice versa. That means forward basing the Italian navy in Tobruk. Or, maybe, Athens or Crete if the Axis took Greece. (Personally I don't think it is ever worth taking Greece as the Axis, but mileage may vary. The only time I'd ever bother is if I was skipping a 41 Barbarossa and going after the UK. Which imo is a poor strategy under the present game balance. You are always better off going after the Soviets in 41.)

The Axis also needs to put enough airpower in the Med to make the Brits think twice about sending out the fleet. And this is something the Axis can do if they want to, they will have a big edge in air for a long time. Personally, nowadays I research naval strike with the Germans and switch all the tac to that after France. That mass of airpower can be concentrated either in the Med or in Norway/Finland (where it can do a number on arctic convoys.) Leave ground support to actual ground strike aircraft.

4-5 ground support is more than enough to support a Barbarossa. Adding the tac to that is kind of a waste. The tac can have a much bigger impact elsewhere.

I will happily trade off a single panzer corps for half the British navy if I can bait out in a situation where it will be overwhelmed by the Axis response. The Germans can replace that panzer corps. The Royal Navy is essentially not replaceable. In raw PP terms this is massively to the Axis advantage if they can set it up right and may even secure the Med for them for the rest of the game. But if you aren't willing to commit the air and naval assets down there to check the Royal Navy, well, c'est la guerre.

[Villain]

Id be curious to see what effect losing 40% effectiveness (as it appears possible that 5 attacks with shore took place) and being on the coast would equate to if the Italian navy came out to play after the UK fleet was also attacked by air.

Losing a tank (don't put them on a coast if they can be attacked this way) just might be worth it to sink a few capital ships.

[Flaviusx]

Losing a tank for half the royal navy is not even a close call. Like I said, this is something like a 4-1 exchange in the Axis favor. (Maybe less than that assuming the RN takes down some of the Regia Marina with them.)

Ships are just incredibly expensive. 600-800 pps for BBs and CVs. Once the British lose those, they are just gone forever. Even the USA would be hard pressed to replace those, let alone the UK economy. That navy down there is equal to a year or more of British production. Good luck trying to replace it once gone.

[Nirosi]

Out of curiosity, what were the predicted odds for that last attack if you remembers? Since it was, probably, a 5th attack with two rounds of 2 units the non-shore odds could also have been over 5vs1 and maybe even more? They sometimes go up quite fast. SO if the normal odds would have been 7vs1, then 9vs is not so bad. If however it goes from 4vs1 to 9vs1 just because of the fleet, then ya, maybe too much. Fleet should add a lot but no be a death star.

But still would like to have more info to get a good opinion.

For now, I have same opinion as Flaviusx: probably good as is for invasions (or maybe all beach/coastal battles?) but maybe a little strong for other battles (if only because it assumes that all the other battles are near coast).

[stjeand]

Well keep in mind...

the Italian navy sucks...it will probably lose an attack against that force.

Yes you may have to have a lot of "air" in that location but you are not going to have 5 bombers to scratch that.
IF I am lucky I might get 1 maybe 2 hits at the cost of 5 or 6 air points.
And that would mean I need 2 or 3 Germans bombers in Africa which is highly unlikely.

What I have been having issue with is the German Armor don't retreat often if at all.


BUT to fix this...you can't "bombard" if you are out of Op points. They should not be able to support 5+ attacks.
No air unit can so why can ships?

[Flaviusx]

The Italian navy, positioned correctly, and backed up by 3-4 naval strike planes can annihilate that force. It is absolutely vulnerable to a counterstrike.

But you have to commit the assets to make this happen.

Don't underestimate the Italian navy. It can counterpunch very well. If you put it out there first, and don't support it, then yes it will be mauled. But this situation? Tasty.

[Flaviusx]

Here's how to do it: start with airstrikes, and then reserve one or two of them for the main fleet action.

If you are lucky enough to take out the destroyer screen, then hit the force with the subs. If not, hit it with entire surface Regia Marina, which will be assisted by an airstrike. Then send the subs in to clean up, again with one airstrike left in reserve. With any kind of reasonable luck, the British will get smoked.

[stjeand]

How many air units do you have in Africa? Sounds like the entire Luftwaffe?

At best I bring 4 air units to Africa...1 or 2 are fighters.
Any more and they are out of main supply and not gaining back any efficiency. I have that issue ALL the time with the UK.

Maybe I will give this a shot.
I have had very minor luck with the Italian navy. Normally their capital ships become submarines, especially if there is a CV in the fleet...they never engage.

[Flaviusx]

I always leave both the Italian tac in the med. And I like to throw in another German tac or two down there as well, and I switch all the German tac to naval strike after France. They are also deadly up in Norway. Free shots at merchants.

If you ignore the Med and send everything east, I have to say I am not very sympathetic here. Yeah, shore bombardment is perhaps a tad strong, but this has to be put in context, namely, a context where the Axis player has no actual counters to the Royal Navy and is wondering why the Royal Navy is operating at will. Well, you have to actually put something down there if you want to stop that. The Royal Navy isn't going to stop itself.

I send zero tac to the eastern front. They are wasted there. Ground support only, including the one Italian ground support plane they start with. Build 2-3 as the Germans. That's all the air you need to support Barbarossa. The tac are wasted on the eastern front, except perhaps in hunting down the Baltic fleet.

[stjeand]

Interesting...I find air not that useful anywhere for the most part. I would rather have 2 or 3 Mech / Armor than ground support.
I don't delete any air...but I don't build any either.

But then that is why we play the game...to learn and adapt.

[Flaviusx]

Airpower is fine, I disagree with the sentiment here that it is underpowered. I think people are not being very creative with it and just want it to be flying artillery. But airpower can be decisive in other ways. Airpower is free shots at merchants every turn. You put a couple of tac on this duty, and that's 50 dead merchants a year, or 500 PPs worth of merchants. This is no joke.

Down in the med, as I've stated, airpower helps enormously in controlling the sea lanes. I see people leaving the Italian ground support unit in Libya and I just scratch my head at that. You are never going to take Egypt. That bird has short legs. What's it doing there? Send that east to kill Russians and be the flying artillery it is meant to be.

Tac bombers in the Med can be pressed into ground support, but this is really secondary and defensive from the Axis standpoint. You are just stalling for time in Libya and trying to keep the British locked down. It is a static front, and the longer it is static the better. If the Axis is doing it right, nothing happens in Africa until and unless the Allies go in Vichy Northern Africa, at which point things get more complicated for the Axis and you have to start making more difficult choices.

[sveint]

Forget airpower, other fleets, etc. My UK fleet just doubled the odds on 5 (I think it was 5) attacks on a land battle.
The first attack was 1-1 but 2-1 with the fleet. Also this seems a sure-fire way to overrun instead of shatter.

[stjeand]

Well I did not want to hijack the thread but the Allies HAVE to go into Vichy North Africa. The only reason you don't is the Germans beat you to it.

If they sit and only come from Alexandria then yes having 4 bombers there could be nice. Just wont be in supply and when their efficiency drops they will be done for.

Once the Allies land now you have to spread your air...and then you are weak to guard against shore bombardment.

Even Al said repeatedly...Tac Bombers going after navy is a very poor use for them.
Now I would not say useless...but they are lucky to get a hit due to being weaker naval attack wise.

BUT the thread digresses...

For me...you should not have unlimited naval bombardment at the least. It needs to be limited. You could be 10 attacks in if you have multiple sets of mech / armor.
NOW that is FAR to powerful.
No plane can do that.
No infantry can do that.
I suppose some mech / armor can do that but their efficiency would be shot.
I don't think shore bombardment even effects naval efficiency.

[Flaviusx]

I thought fleets could not support attacks in excess of their operation points and therefore you will never get more than 2 shots in support per turn. (Not sure in defense, maybe same.)

[Flaviusx]

Also, "ignoring air power and other fleets" is taking things out of their proper context.

If the other side had their counters in place you wouldn't be sending the fleet out to do all this stuff to begin with. (Or you might do it...if you are willing to pay the price.)

Context matters. This is not some kind of purely tactical question. This entire thread has the implicit assumption that players are helpless and cannot counter Death Star fleets. But this of course is not true.

[YueJin]

Fleets support an unlimited amount of times as long as they are adjacent to the hex. They do however lose efficiency and very quickly as well, 8% for each bombardment. As efficiency effect all stats including defence and anti air, a fleet that's just done 5+ naval support actions will be incredibly vunerable. Naval support does feel very slightly too powerful but it's really not by much in my opinion given the importance of the units and how much risk they face.