Surprise surprise

[Joseignacio]

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."


But MWIF isn't based on CE, so RAW7 should take preference, IMHO.

And anyway that they are not surprised by the units of the power that was previously at war with that country "even if they attack in conjunction", doesn't mean that the war declaring power units don't have surprise.

IMO that's a wrong interpretation on your part, in CE too.

[BrianJH]

I agree with Paul on this.

Surprise bonuses are applied depending on the defending units (surprise) status.

Rule 15.0 (RAW7) make it clear what this status is.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."

As for the example in the original post, the last sentence applies here. The German aircraft flew from Germany, of which Germany was at war with France the previous impulse. Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

Attacking units don't claim surprise, it's a status applied to the defender, so any other units participating in the attack do not receive surprise bonuses, because the defending units are not surprised!!

Brian.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

I agree with Paul on this.

Surprise bonuses are applied depending on the defending units (surprise) status.

Rule 15.0 (RAW7) make it clear what this status is.

"Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are at war with someone else.

However they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse."

As for the example in the original post, the last sentence applies here. The German aircraft flew from Germany, of which Germany was at war with France the previous impulse. Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

Attacking units don't claim surprise, it's a status applied to the defender, so any other units participating in the attack do not receive surprise bonuses, because the defending units are not surprised!!

Brian.

The rule says those units are not surprised by GE (in this case) but those criteria don't apply to IT, which is effectively surprising FR, so IT units do surprise France.

The rule doesnt say anytime that surprised is an attribute of the attacker or the defender, it points to the relation between them.

Hence, the units being attacked are not surprised.

(by GE but yes by IT)

[Joseignacio]

One other thing... Since the GE are including units not surprising the french, unlike the IT, could the French use their bomber in extended range to support? I guess yes.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Someone did and hence the first paragraph of Surprise in the newest rules (CE) now reads: "Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a country they are currently at war with even if they attack in conjunction with units from a major power that has just declared war on them."

Paul, I think that this quote supports my position, not yours. What this says is that in the case under discussion, France is not surprised by Germany. We all agree on that. The German bomber is not doubled for surprise. However, this rule says that the French units are surprised by Italy. I see nothing in this rule that says that Italian units are do not get the benefit of surprise, even if the Germans are also involved in the combat.

[gw15]

Whew! I need a beer after reading this thread. Makes me kind of miss the old days before computers playing WIF and we had to pause every so often to argue about rules.

[paulderynck]

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

[eouellet]

To add my two cans of beer here...

There is a bug in the original scenario for sure. It should be: IT 3 x 2 + GE 1.5 = 7.5, rounded to 8, not 9.

Surprise is a status for both attacker and defender, per power involved. In the new question from Paul, FR would be surprised, so no HQ support, while IT as attacker gets all the bonuses and advantages of surprise, and GE goes on as normal. The rules are pretty clear that it is power dependent, not a general status. So, an IT unit stacked with a GE unit attacking across a river, the IT unit attack factor would not be divided by two, but the GE unit yes. If an IT ATR transports a GE Airbone unit, the Italian ATR would not be subject to interception, but the GE Airbone would be as normal in land combat.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

With the German bomber there, the French HQ could provide support. Adding more German units doesn't change that.

[paulderynck]

Well at least I stirred the slurry some more...

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

With the German bomber there, the French HQ could provide support. Adding more German units doesn't change that.

Why? The Germans are not attacking the HQ and France is a surprised major power this impulse. Ergo that HQ is surprised, no?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

So here's a hypothetical question for y'all (whether or not you've had one or more beers so far).

Suppose there is French HQ adjacent to and behind the units being attacked in this example. It wants to use HQ support but the rules say surprised HQs can't do that. Can it provide HQ support - if so, why? If not - why not?

Let's say there's room in one of the hexes for the Germans to ATR in a mountain unit to also join in the land attack along with an Italian unit that is there and let's say that this attacking hex is across a river from the defender. Does this change anything regarding the HQ support?

With the German bomber there, the French HQ could provide support. Adding more German units doesn't change that.

Why? The Germans are not attacking the HQ and France is a surprised major power this impulse. Ergo that HQ is surprised, no?

RAW:
Aircraft units
Surprised aircraft units cannot fly any mission that is exclusively
against units controlled by major powers declaring war. Therefore, in
the surprise impulse they can’t:
• fly a ground support mission to a hex being attacked only by
units controlled by those enemy major powers;

So this means, that a French bomber could fly ground support, since the Axis did add a German bomber, which participates in the attack.

RAW:

Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power
declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone
else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor
country they are currently at war with.

And:
Surprised HQs cannot provide emergency HQ supply (see 2.4.3) or
HQ support (see 11.16.3).

Since Germany did include a bomber for ground support, the French HQ isn't surprised anymore regarding this particular attack. So it should be able to add ground support. The same applies if a German land unit takes part in the attack. However, if another hex adjacent to him is being attacked by Italian units only, he cannot use support on that hex. This is a case in which a unit can be both surprised and not-surprised. [:D]

RAW:
Aircraft units controlled by a major power declaring war, cannot be
intercepted if they are flying:
(...)
• any other mission exclusively against surprised units.

So an Italian ATR carrying a German PARA (or German MTN) cannot be intercepted.

I'm going to open a beer now. Any pretsels around? [8D]

[Courtenay]

I agree with what Peter said, except for this:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
• any other mission exclusively against surprised units.

So an Italian ATR carrying a German PARA (or German MTN) cannot be intercepted.

There is what looks to me like a contradiction in the rules. (A contradiction in WiF Rules? "No, never." "What, never?" "Well, hardly ever." [:)])

The surprise rule starts with this:

Therefore, in the surprise impulse they can’t:

Fly an interception mission against aircraft units only controlled by those enemy major powers;

So reading this rule it looks like am Italian ATR dropping a German PARA on a French unit could not be intercepted, but the rule that Peter quoted would seem to imply that it can be intercepted, because the French unit being dropped on would not be surprised by the Germans.

My belief is that the ATR could be intercepted, but I am not at all sure of this.

[paulderynck]

The more I re-read the Surprise rules, the stranger this all becomes. For example: "Aircraft (from any major power) can’t fly a defensive ground support mission to a hex where the only land units there are surprised" means that France cannot fly defensive ground support in the above example even though Germany does - unless you accept that the presence of the German ground support means the French land units are not surprised, after all.

Then in the section about land units we have: "Land units are not halved when attacking a surprised land unit across a river or canal hexside (even if some other unit in the hex is not surprised). Note that last highlighted part. It essentially says that Land attacks work differently than naval combat and port strikes that contain unsurprised units. That leads to me indeed wondering if surprise benefits can be gained by the surprising power in land attacks even when non-surprising power units also participate in the attack. This is a corollary to the part of the rule quoted that is in parentheses.

On the subject of the HQ my belief is that the attack the HQ is trying to defensive ground support does not matter because by definition France is surprised for this impulse and thus a French HQ must be surprised. And that would apply to a hex where only Germans are attacking. The only way an HQ would not be surprised would be if it was attacked solely by German units.

Overall in my view I think it really simplifies things to only be able to apply surprise when any combat solely involves surprising and surprised units, although the rules don't support that and in the case of attacking across a river actually contradict it - at least for the defender.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The more I re-read the Surprise rules, the stranger this all becomes. For example: "Aircraft (from any major power) can’t fly a defensive ground support mission to a hex where the only land units there are surprised" means that France cannot fly defensive ground support in the above example even though Germany does - unless you accept that the presence of the German ground support means the French land units are not surprised, after all.

Then in the section about land units we have: "Land units are not halved when attacking a surprised land unit across a river or canal hexside (even if some other unit in the hex is not surprised). Note that last highlighted part. It essentially says that Land attacks work differently than naval combat and port strikes that contain unsurprised units. That leads to me indeed wondering if surprise benefits can be gained by the surprising power in land attacks even when non-surprising power units also participate in the attack. This is a corollary to the part of the rule quoted that is in parentheses.

On the subject of the HQ my belief is that the attack the HQ is trying to defensive ground support does not matter because by definition France is surprised for this impulse and thus a French HQ must be surprised. And that would apply to a hex where only Germans are attacking. The only way an HQ would not be surprised would be if it was attacked solely by German units.

Overall in my view I think it really simplifies things to only be able to apply surprise when any combat solely involves surprising and surprised units, although the rules don't support that and in the case of attacking across a river actually contradict it - at least for the defender.

Yes, it would make things easier. However, that's not RAW.

There is this also too consider:

RAW:
To fly ground support:
1. your opponent flies combat air patrol to potential target hexes;
2. you fly your selected attacking bombers...

This means IMHO that the German bomber is a unit which attacks the hex and therefore the French can fly defensive ground support.
It's a somewhat grey area in the rules to determine when an HQ is surprised. One can explain the rules in such a way that due to the German bomber, the French units which are being attacked are not surprised, so the HQ can add support.

[paulderynck]

"Aircraft (from any major power) can’t fly a defensive ground support mission to a hex where the only land units there are surprised"

So you are saying that the French land units there are not surprised. And you are saying the Italian aircraft gets a surprise benefit because the French land units are surprised.

Which is it?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

"Aircraft (from any major power) can’t fly a defensive ground support mission to a hex where the only land units there are surprised"

So you are saying that the French land units there are not surprised. And you are saying the Italian aircraft gets a surprise benefit because the French land units are surprised.

Which is it?

Both. In this case, a French unit is surprised when it gets attacked by Italian units and not surprised when German units are attacking (except when the Italians attack out of German controlled territory, than the unit isn't surprised).

So, if an Italian plane flies out of Italy to a French stack of units adjacent to German units and will ground strike that hex, it gets two rolls, even if there is a German plane ground striking that same hex.
Ground support works exactly the same. However, since a German unit is participating in the attack (even if it is just an aircraft) the French can fly defensive ground support.

It is not true that a unit is surprised or not. That in itself isn't stated in the rules.