Axis Motor Cycle Squads (where are they?)

[DeletedUser44]

Some of the Axis TOE numbers look really suspect. In particular, motorcycle squads.

The average squad assumed to contain 8 men (8 motorcycles, 4 motorcycles with sidecar or 3 motorcycle half-tracks Sd.kfz.2 kleines Kettenkraftrad), 2 pistols, 7 rifles, 1 SMG.

According to Nigel Askey, there were approximately 21,000 German motorcycle squads committed to the eastern front in support of Barbarossa; However, WiTE2 only has 1,219 motorcycle squads.

Really?

Even considering "less than half of the above motorcycle squads were actually motorcycle infantry armed with LMGs and heavy weapons...", that could easily amount to 8,000 Kradschutzen squads not represented.

"German motorcycle troops were a key component of almost all divisional reconnaissance units in the first few years of the war, and they were used extensively in the deep reconnaissance and exploitation role."

so where are they?

Even though the typical German Infantry Divs had 65-75 motorcycles squads in their '41 TOEs, none are actually represented in WiTE2.

On detailed review of a random German Panzer Division (the 11th in this instance), I found WiTE2 only listed 33 squads of the 269 motorcycle squads actually deployed in the 11th Panzer Division. This seems to be the case in all the German Panzer Divisions.

"The 1941 Panzer Division had over 1350 motorcycles. Many of these were heavy motorcycles equipped with powered wheel sidecars and detachable LMG's. A typical German Motorcycle Infantry Squad (with a squad LMG) usually used 4 motorcycles with sidecars, and occasionally 8 motorcycles"

The detailed breakdown is as follows:

Motorized Infantry Reg (x2): 41 each
Panzer Reg: 26
Recon Bn: 26
Motorcycle Bn: 61
AntiTank Bn: 8
Artillery Regt: 20
Engineer Bn: 17
Signal Bn: 4
Div Support: 25


So, out of the 269 motorcycle squads, are the missing 236 squads all presumed to be "support" & "communication"?

seriously?

On the contrary, I tend to believe your historian got bored [>:] and decided it was much easier to exclude them from any of the infantry divisions and arbitrarily choose '33' squads for the Panzer divisions.

Isn't the game historian listed in the credits somewhere? [:-]

[Great_Ajax]

Only motorcycle squads that are part of an actual combat formation are included. Motorcycle squads that are in the regimental recon platoon or in the motorcycle recon companies are included. Dispatch riders, traffic control units and motorcycle units in the logistics, signals and command are not included as a combat motorcycle squad.

Thanks for calling me out as being unprofessional. Deliberate thought went into decision based on the combat engine.

Oh, and the arbitrary and random 33 motorcycle squads that I lazily added to the panzer divisions represents the three motorcycle companies in the motorcycle battalion (9 squads per company x 3) plus the two motorcycle recon platoon represented in the Panzergrenadier Regiments (3 squads in a platoon x 2).

[DeletedUser44]

Nothing personal. I really did not know who you were or remembered your name. [;)] (come to think of it, wasn't Dennis listed as historian? sigh, now I will have to go back and check credits again...)

Even considering some were used as support and communication, I hardly believe that of the 21,000 squads deployed that only 1,200 were used in combat roles. What, the other 20,000 squads were zooming around delivering messages?

Right now, you have 100% of the motorcycle squads in German Infantry Divs as "support". That hardly seems likely. Especially considering they each had a Recon Bn containing (9) motorcycle squads alone.

Just in reviewing the detailed breakdown of the 11th Pz Div listed above:

Motorized Infantry Reg (x2): 41 each
Panzer Reg: 26
Recon Bn: 26
Motorcycle Bn: 61
AntiTank Bn: 8 *
Artillery Regt: 20 *
Engineer Bn: 17 *
Signal Bn: 4 *
Div Support: 25 *

I could concede that those with '*' could be considered "support", and maybe a bunch (but not 100%) of the Motorized Infantry and Panzer Regs, but definitely not the Recon Bn or Motorcycle Bn.

Just the Recon Bn (26) and Motorcycle Bn (61) alone contained (87) motorcycle squads total, where you only listed (33) for the entire division. What role do you think the motorcycle squads were performing in those elements?

[msf567]

sauron literally why come to the forum of the most well-researched and constructed strategy game in history and call a member of the team (let alone one of the scenario designers) lazy and be so... mean?

you're not gonna get any answer nor does anyone owe you one with that attitude.

maybe if you approached it with genuine curiosity and a williness to learn you'd get different results...

[comte]

Sauron II is a Pelton alt account infamous WITE troll.

[Great_Ajax]

Nothing personal? Seriously? You really have no idea how much time and thought I put into this work and then you rebuke me on a topic that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I dont mind debating these topics as they are very interesting but you crossed the line and you won't get a further response from me. We have discussed this topic before in the forums. You're welcome to research the answer yourself.

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Nothing personal. I really did not know who you were or remembered your name. [;)] (come to think of it, wasn't Dennis listed as historian? sigh, now I will have to go back and check credits again...)

Even considering some were used as support and communication, I hardly believe that of the 21,000 squads deployed that only 1,200 were used in combat roles. What, the other 20,000 squads were zooming around delivering messages?

Right now, you have 100% of the motorcycle squads in German Infantry Divs as "support". That hardly seems likely. Especially considering they each had a Recon Bn containing (9) motorcycle squads alone.

Just in reviewing the detailed breakdown of the 11th Pz Div listed above:

Motorized Infantry Reg (x2): 41 each
Panzer Reg: 26
Recon Bn: 26
Motorcycle Bn: 61
AntiTank Bn: 8 *
Artillery Regt: 20 *
Engineer Bn: 17 *
Signal Bn: 4 *
Div Support: 25 *

I could concede that those with '*' could be considered "support", and maybe a bunch (but not 100%) of the Motorized Infantry and Panzer Regs, but definitely not the Recon Bn or Motorcycle Bn.

Just the Recon Bn (26) and Motorcycle Bn (61) alone contained (87) motorcycle squads total, where you only listed (33) for the entire division. What role do you think the motorcycle squads were performing in those elements?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
seriously?

On the contrary, I tend to believe your historian got bored [>:] and decided it was much easier to exclude them from any of the infantry divisions and arbitrarily choose '33' squads for the Panzer divisions.

Isn't the game historian listed in the credits somewhere? [:-]

Please keep discussions civil and polite, this is a warning and a reminder of the forum rules.