Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

To give you an idea, mind_messing, of my intention to skip any operation in Canton Island if Suva is still in my hands:

As with post 137, not worth going around.

The Ellice Islands don't give you much beyond a nice floatplane base. Baker island at least is a level 1 airbase, but that's all.

Canton gives you a potential level 5 port and a level 2 airbase off the bat. That means you can get CL/CA task forces under a decent CAP without massive effort and can shovel supply, fuel and tenders into the base from Pearl. If the IJ want to oppose you, they're either working off of tenders or going back to the upper Marshalls (and even then the tenders will need to go back there to reload anyhow.)

At this point in the war, with bases so under-developed, it's a naval war. If you're based as far back as Fiji and the Line Islands then the tempo of your operations is slowed by the couple days transit times. Having Canton in your back pocket means you can be running missions into the Gilberts and be rearmed and refuelled at a much faster pace (and much faster than any IJ units sent to oppose!).

Right. I agree with your point. I'll organize an aggression to the place with the necessary forces.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

More than China, where I'm quite messed up by the Ankang move, it's Burma my problem. I don't know really well how to orchestrate an offensive there in a manner that is not the often seen human wave.

In line of principle, my issue in China is that I don't think I will be able to fully solve the crisis in Ankang. Now I don't have the game in front of me, but I'll post a screen soon.


So far, Changsha looks very fine. Same with Changteh. Need to reinforce Paotung since I think there is a sneaky Japanese unit approaching it from Ichang.

Southern China is mostly calm.

Wenchow still in my hands.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by BBfanboy »

It's hard to figure out what your status is because you haven't said the game date with each post. In general, it sounds like you are still early in 1942 and expecting to make significant offensives or set up solid barriers to the Japanese. That will not happen - the Allies are still trying to concentrate from their dispersed game start and they need to recruit and train new troops. Even the veteran reinforcements arrive far away and need to be brought to the action.

In the first six months of 1942 the Allies are not going to stop a major IJ effort in Burma, nor create a solid roadblock in China if the IJA tanks show up. I think harassing raids are possible on land but would not expect to do much beyond that yet. You should expect to work on the foundations of your comeback well beyond the lines and forget about throwing weak units at the Japanese spearheads.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ny59giants »

Allies need to focus heavily on pilot training for the first six months as they don't have the airframes to throw away that Japan does. I focus on setting up my logistics between USA and Australia. Staying and fighting in Burma makes it easy for Japan to land at Chittagong and then drive to Ledo to cut them off and force a retreat into supply starved China. Patience my young Jedi! [:D]
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

It's hard to figure out what your status is because you haven't said the game date with each post. In general, it sounds like you are still early in 1942 and expecting to make significant offensives or set up solid barriers to the Japanese. That will not happen - the Allies are still trying to concentrate from their dispersed game start and they need to recruit and train new troops. Even the veteran reinforcements arrive far away and need to be brought to the action.

In the first six months of 1942 the Allies are not going to stop a major IJ effort in Burma, nor create a solid roadblock in China if the IJA tanks show up. I think harassing raids are possible on land but would not expect to do much beyond that yet. You should expect to work on the foundations of your comeback well beyond the lines and forget about throwing weak units at the Japanese spearheads.

We're on th 28th of December 1941.

In line of principle, my main target is to be able to exploit an eventual overextension from the Japanese side. I do agree with the need of going slowly, but I don't want to end up as many of my allied opponents who have gone very cautiously for the first months and weren't prepared to exploit my weak strategic position when I did overextend myself.

Say Omar heavily invades Australia. If I have a proper deployment in India, I can easily strike into Burma. If I have to bring there troops and place them and so on, it takes several months, months that are wasted.

Given the fact that he seems somehow poised to go deep in the SOPAC, my basic idea is to fight a holding battle in Australia proper, leave NZ to its own devices and strike back in Burma in the meanwhile, with the idea that I can credibly retake the place and then hold it, while I should be able to defend successfully at least the key Australian locations.
Bottom line is to be prepared to counterstrike heavily in case the Japanese gets in an unbalanced position. If he doesn't, fair enough: it means I am not facing huge crisis around the map.

If he invades India, fair enough again: I have in the place the troops to defend it.

That is the reasoning behind my buildup in the area.


I won't for sure send my armies in a "charge of the light brigade"-style charge into enemy territory with the Japanese landing behind me in a blink of an eye.

Admittedly, I've been tempted to explore the idea of sending a relevant army into Burma and letting actually he land behind me, but I think it's too much of a gamble and the situation is more likely than not to explode in my hands. It would be funny to try, maybe in another match... [:D][:D][:D]

My forces in India are very weak and the Chinese Corps being airlifted there will take a while before they'll be ready. Sending to the frontline now would transform them pretty quickly from Chinese Corps to Chinese Corpses. They will be however a powerful force in the next months, when they'll be able to fight backed by western tanks/AA/ART. Basically, they put the manpower and the allies put the machines: it's not rocket science, I know [:)]

As per China, it's difficult to block enemy tanks, but it's still too early: my anti-tank units are marching into the theater and it will take a while before they do arrive there. For the time being, we do with what we have.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Allies need to focus heavily on pilot training for the first six months as they don't have the airframes to throw away that Japan does. I focus on setting up my logistics between USA and Australia. Staying and fighting in Burma makes it easy for Japan to land at Chittagong and then drive to Ledo to cut them off and force a retreat into supply starved China. Patience my young Jedi!

Pilot training is in full gear around the map, except the units committed do Java defense. They are a relatively minor force, after all and I haven't committed any kind of LCU in forward positions. That's a very relevant point accordingly to me, since ships, by definition, have a good mobility and can disengage quite quickly from the area.
Planes can be somehow managed so that losses aren't crippling (yeah, take aside the awful 2nd day strike on Palembang...). LCUs are a big problems for the allies early on and I'm not committing them in forward positions.
For example, I've sent a small bunch of reinforcements to Ambon (where they died miserably) but it was very little and in my opinion worth the attempt. Omar landed with over 300AV and they didn't make any difference, but it was reasonable to try to make him find some more AVs and maybe entail a reinforcement convoy to be sent (and engaged by me).
Same goes with Suva. I added enough troops to require a divisional landing but nothing more.

I don't believe in the concept of festung at all and I think that static defense is the poorest for of defense. Now, in some areas I plan to act along the static defense mode due to the lack of additional troops being available, but that's life.


In Burma I have a very thin defense currently. My opinion is that I want him to possibly commit more than the 33rd Infantry Division to take Rangoon and nothing more. I don't plan any kind of "redoubt" around: my forces are concentrated between Madras and Calcutta, leaving the entire area between Calcutta and Rangoon open.
The basic idea is that I first need to have my troops a little bit "fixed" and then I can start deploying them in more exposed positions. Should he decide to land in Chittagong, he would cut nobody off currently.
My vision is that I don't have the strength to cover everything right now and I prefer to be sure I have the bulk of India covered rather than covering in a mediocre manner both the Indian mainland and the strip of land between Calcutta and Ledo-Rangoon.
Once my troops are in a better shape, I can start thinking about that. Now, I secure vital points so that a Japanese offensive can hurt but cannot blow up entirely my position in the theater.

Incidentally, I have abandoned Celyon, a decision I might regret if he goes quickly for it. I will re-occupy the area in few weeks, when the first bunch of USArmy reinforcements will be available in the theater.



As per USA-Australia sea highway, I need to fix it. I have ENG and troops on ships to key points such as Tahiti and Christmas Island. As soon as more troops and ENG become available, more will be sent a little bit farther WEST. So far, I setup key bases well behind.

USA-Australia route is difficult to fix right now for various reasons: A) I don't have any idea of where Omar plans to stop his advance; B) without rear area bases, my logistics is even more awful than the IJN one and so I cannot do much; C) I have such a small amount of assets, that I have to decide where I place them and I prefer to keep them behind rather tan forward.





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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

Start of turn 22 (28-DEC-41) in China:



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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by BBfanboy »

Thanks for explaining your thoughts and near-term plans. Your previous posts made it sound like you were despairing of the Allied problems and without a general plan other than trying to hit in a weak spot - of which there will be few at this stage.

RE: India, the only two key bases you must keep are Karachi and Bombay - all the others can be ceded in a "space-for-time" campaign. Karachi and Bombay allow you to bring in reinforcements from Aden, fuel from Abadan and supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.

Australia's key bases are Sydney and Melbourne and a corridor between them to help supply Melbourne. All else can be ceded in a space-for-time campaign. Once US troops and aircraft become available in numbers the Japanese will suddenly find themselves hitting a brick wall with threats all around their expanded perimeter, and you will have the pleasure of picking where to strike suddenly. [;)]

Good Luck, and stay positive during this time of hardship. [:)]
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for explaining your thoughts and near-term plans. Your previous posts made it sound like you were despairing of the Allied problems and without a general plan other than trying to hit in a weak spot - of which there will be few at this stage.

RE: India, the only two key bases you must keep are Karachi and Bombay - all the others can be ceded in a "space-for-time" campaign. Karachi and Bombay allow you to bring in reinforcements from Aden, fuel from Abadan and supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.

Australia's key bases are Sydney and Melbourne and a corridor between them to help supply Melbourne. All else can be ceded in a space-for-time campaign. Once US troops and aircraft become available in numbers the Japanese will suddenly find themselves hitting a brick wall with threats all around their expanded perimeter, and you will have the pleasure of picking where to strike suddenly. [;)]

Good Luck, and stay positive during this time of hardship. [:)]

For India, do not forget Socotra - or to Greyjoy, Scodra or something like that!
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by jdsrae »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

…supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.

In between PBEM turns I’ve been having a look into the reinforcement convoys that arrive as Commonwealth artillery reinforcements and disband their cargo into the pools after three days.
I’ve started putting the dates, supply and fuel cargo they carry into a spreadsheet and Cape Town gets about 10 million supply and 4m fuel over the course of the war without any more convoys being setup, eg: East Coast USA to Cape Town.
The demand on ships to move all of that to India and/or Australia where it is intended to go is quite large, so instead of using ships to take more to Cape Town you might be better off making sure you have enough ships home ported there to get it onto the map.

I’ve still got more numbers to crunch, but I’m already thinking there might be better uses for the huge amounts of supply and fuel produced by East Coast USA every day. Either let it move by train to the West Coast or run it to the Canal Zone for shipments into the Pacific.

EDIT - that’s just the WS/OS convoys and daily generation that bring 10M supply and 4M fuel to Cape Town. Those convoys were heading to India.
Not yet included are the TB convoys which were USA to Sydney, but they only carry a very small amount of supply in comparison.
Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by RangerJoe »

I disagree. Move the supplies to Cape Town now. You will need them eventually and you do not have escorts for your ships. Until you can ensure relatively save transit and delivery, you are better off playing it safe with your ships. It does not matter how many you get in later, it is how many that you do not have to risk. On the plus side, you can use the APs and AKs that will convert to APAs and AKAs doing this and not risking them. Also, very little damage will be generated doing this.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by jdsrae »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I disagree. Move the supplies to Cape Town now. You will need them eventually and you do not have escorts for your ships. Until you can ensure relatively save transit and delivery, you are better off playing it safe with your ships. It does not matter how many you get in later, it is how many that you do not have to risk. On the plus side, you can use the APs and AKs that will convert to APAs and AKAs doing this and not risking them. Also, very little damage will be generated doing this.

Moving more stuff to Cape Town is an option, but that will mean even more ships are needed to get it from there onto the map at some point.
What a problem for the Allies to have!
Supply and fuel stockpiles that might be too large for available ships to move!

Also, it looks like Cape Town gets plenty of fuel and supply through those simulated convoys to share between India and Aus.
Aden also gets a few brazilian of each, especially when the Suez Canal opens, even without adding more human created convoys.

So shipping excess from East Coast USA might be better to send it to the Canal Zone which does not get its own auto convoys, or Port Stanley which only gets one delivery of UK brewed real ale per year.

Players choice of course, but there is a decision to be made about how much to send from East Coast USA to the Indian Ocean areas vs the Pacific Ocean Areas.
Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for explaining your thoughts and near-term plans. Your previous posts made it sound like you were despairing of the Allied problems and without a general plan other than trying to hit in a weak spot - of which there will be few at this stage.

RE: India, the only two key bases you must keep are Karachi and Bombay - all the others can be ceded in a "space-for-time" campaign. Karachi and Bombay allow you to bring in reinforcements from Aden, fuel from Abadan and supply from Capetown (once you set up convoys from EC USA to CT to fill build supply stocks) and keep a bit of supply generation.

Australia's key bases are Sydney and Melbourne and a corridor between them to help supply Melbourne. All else can be ceded in a space-for-time campaign. Once US troops and aircraft become available in numbers the Japanese will suddenly find themselves hitting a brick wall with threats all around their expanded perimeter, and you will have the pleasure of picking where to strike suddenly. [;)]

Good Luck, and stay positive during this time of hardship. [:)]

Thanks for the post! Yes, I see that it looked like I was doing a wild charge or going to do so.

My posture is quite conservative instead, after all. I have reinforced India and sending few small LCUs around the SOPAC to secure few key locations such as Suva or Christmas Island, but I am leaving to its own devices most of the "non vital" areas.
Melbourne and Sidney are the two places I intend to defend to the last man if necessary, both from a VP perspective and from an industrial one.


Regarding Bombay, I disagree. I think the key bases in India (together with Socotra indeed) are Karachi and Calcutta.

Calcutta is the forward defense, which threatens any deep Japanese penetration in the area. It has to be hold.
Should the Japanese overrun it, the war gets into a phase where your next vital area is Karachi. Karachi is much, much better than Bombay due to the offmap movement: KB is needed to credibly establish a blockade of Karachi. On top of that, the Japanese, should he decide to establish a naval blockade and take it through brute force, would have a little bit harder time in bombarding it from the sea. If you besiege Bombay, you can either develop and put NavSupport in Goa sending NavB TFs every single night or you can safely use AKEs as well.
For Karachi is slightly different, also considering the always present threat of USN CVs emerging from offmap with no notice and sinking every IJN vessel around. Bombay blockade can be safely done with long range NavS instead.
Last, but not least, Bombay doesn't activate emergency reinforcements, while Karachi does. A smart Japanese can simply besiege your army in Bombay, kill all those poor s@ckers and then be happy with the destruction of all those UK/Indian/etcetc devices/squads. No need for him to activate emergency reinforcements, since your counteroffensive will be very difficult to setup even in the long term.
The difference in terrain bonus is, under these circumstances, marginal at best.




How Calcutta can deal with multiple threats at the same time:

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I disagree. Move the supplies to Cape Town now. You will need them eventually and you do not have escorts for your ships. Until you can ensure relatively save transit and delivery, you are better off playing it safe with your ships. It does not matter how many you get in later, it is how many that you do not have to risk. On the plus side, you can use the APs and AKs that will convert to APAs and AKAs doing this and not risking them. Also, very little damage will be generated doing this.


CT runs are useful precisely for this reason: APA/AKA/etcetc are to be protected and there is no other off-map route which is more reasonable than CT.

They can f.ex. ship to Panama and from there you have onmap convoys picking stuff up and bringing them to Australia, but it makes little sense to me: those ships which go offmap to Panama and then onmap have a higher ROI if employed onmap all the time.


CT gets many supplies, true, but it's also a relatively short route to India and Australia and you do MANY shipments. The turnaround is remarkable. It's not like the infinite chain of convoys from US to Australia.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by RangerJoe »

Cape Town does not get a lot of supplies right away. From Cape Town, you can have single TFs of 17 knot xAKs hauling supplies with a little fuel to Perth or other ports in Australia.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I disagree. Move the supplies to Cape Town now. You will need them eventually and you do not have escorts for your ships. Until you can ensure relatively save transit and delivery, you are better off playing it safe with your ships. It does not matter how many you get in later, it is how many that you do not have to risk. On the plus side, you can use the APs and AKs that will convert to APAs and AKAs doing this and not risking them. Also, very little damage will be generated doing this.

Moving more stuff to Cape Town is an option, but that will mean even more ships are needed to get it from there onto the map at some point.
What a problem for the Allies to have!
Supply and fuel stockpiles that might be too large for available ships to move!

Also, it looks like Cape Town gets plenty of fuel and supply through those simulated convoys to share between India and Aus.
Aden also gets a few brazilian of each, especially when the Suez Canal opens, even without adding more human created convoys.

So shipping excess from East Coast USA might be better to send it to the Canal Zone which does not get its own auto convoys, or Port Stanley which only gets one delivery of UK brewed real ale per year.

Players choice of course, but there is a decision to be made about how much to send from East Coast USA to the Indian Ocean areas vs the Pacific Ocean Areas.

I actually don't see the benefit of Panama or Port Stanley, since I don't plan to run convoys from/to there. CT on the other side is interesting since it's a place that gets huge amounts of supplies shipped out.
Also, and that's not secondary, there are many planes and troops which are transferred more quickly via sea than via offmap movement. Having ships on the East Coast helps in moving those units.

Should be noted that Eastern USA to Capetown is 170 hexes. At an average speed of 7hexes per-turn is 24 days. At an average speed of 6hexes per-turn is still 28days. Offmap transit time is 38days. What I mean is that you can cut up to 14 days (two weeks!) of transit time using ships along the route. It's highly important to always keep this in mind, since time is everything.

Personally, also, I live under the impression that, given my strategic posture, having a single place I ship to India and Australia is very useful. You can decide f.ex. to send additional shipments to Australia early on and send more to India later or viceversa.


Finally, I live in Cape Town.[:D]
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Cape Town does not get a lot of supplies right away. From Cape Town, you can have single TFs of 17 knot xAKs hauling supplies with a little fuel to Perth or other ports in Australia.


Yeah, it starts with 300,000 supplies IIRC (not at the laptop now) and gets something like +180,000 somewhere in January but I am actually shipping more than this even now. I definitely need larger stocks there.
Fuel is more of an issue.

I'm considering the mad idea of using xAKLs for Abadan-Karachi and leaving the TKs to longer oceanic trips. Actually, I think it works much better in this way for the time being.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Cape Town does not get a lot of supplies right away. From Cape Town, you can have single TFs of 17 knot xAKs hauling supplies with a little fuel to Perth or other ports in Australia.
Early on Cape Town will need fuel from the US too or ships will sit there with dry tanks.
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by RangerJoe »

The benefit of shipping supplies to Panama is the ships that arrive there can load supplies then move out instead of going to the West Coast to load or back to the East Coast.

Have some large tankers moving fuel from the East Coast to Capetown. From there if there is a build up, that is fine. When you start moving large, escorted convoys out from Cape Town then you will need the fuel. You can also stage fuel and supplies from Cape Town to Mombasa. You could also move supplies from Cape Town, to Aden and thence to Karachi limiting you on map exposure.

Oil could go from Abaden, to Aden and thence to Cape Town for shipment to Australia but you are better off moving fuel. Let the Australian oil refinery workers find another defence job or let them join the military so they won't be around the young ladies for when the American arrive. [:D]

Since the Fuel at Abadan should not spoil, it can stay there but use the smaller tankers to move some to Karachi and Aden. The xAKls can move the extra supplies from there out.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The benefit of shipping supplies to Panama is the ships that arrive there can load supplies then move out instead of going to the West Coast to load or back to the East Coast.

Have some large tankers moving fuel from the East Coast to Capetown. From there if there is a build up, that is fine. When you start moving large, escorted convoys out from Cape Town then you will need the fuel. You can also stage fuel and supplies from Cape Town to Mombasa. You could also move supplies from Cape Town, to Aden and thence to Karachi limiting you on map exposure.

Oil could go from Abaden, to Aden and thence to Cape Town for shipment to Australia but you are better off moving fuel. Let the Australian oil refinery workers find another defence job or let them join the military so they won't be around the young ladies for when the American arrive. [:D]

Since the Fuel at Abadan should not spoil, it can stay there but use the smaller tankers to move some to Karachi and Aden. The xAKls can move the extra supplies from there out.
I built decent stockpiles of supply and fuel at Cristobal and to a lesser extent Balboa just by using the stockpile buttons and demand increase buttons. The only place I had to ship to (one convoy) was Port Stanley as I built up the port and AF there for VPs and potential pivot point to supply SOPAC, should the Japanese control too much of the path from Panama.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: Insanity. Obscenity. Indecency. ITAKLinus (A) vs DesertWolf101 (J)

Post by ITAKLinus »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Cape Town does not get a lot of supplies right away. From Cape Town, you can have single TFs of 17 knot xAKs hauling supplies with a little fuel to Perth or other ports in Australia.
Early on Cape Town will need fuel from the US too or ships will sit there with dry tanks.

witpqs, thanks for the information. I somehow thought it wouldn't have been necessary provided a good stream from Abadan to India (thus, making ships refuel onmap in India rather than CT).

I'll try to fix this oversight from my side immediately. Thank you again.
Francesco
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