RAF in the Pacific

[ncc1701e]

Could you please consider the following enhancement?

I would like to have one UK Air Superiority group with 1939 Interceptors advancement at start.

a. This UK Air Superiority group will be located in Singapore (hex 41, 41) at the start of Pacific 1941 scenario
b. Since UK were surprised by the air attack, it will be deployed in Mission Only mode NOT, I repeat NOT, Full Support mode. This is to give the Japanese's naval air groups a chance to sink the Repulse and the Prince of Wales.
c. This UK Air Superiority group will have a strength of 10/20 only. Plenty of spare parts problem.
d. This UK Air Superiority group will have 1939 Interceptors advancement. Mostly Brewster Buffalo fighters and later Hawker Hurricanes.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/fall-of-singapore/

[ncc1701e]

Historically, they were located at Singapore but, after the fall of Singapore, the rest would be operating from Southern Sumatra.

[ncc1701e]

Everything is good for slowing down the Axis. And, I like having the RAF on the map as it did historically.

[stjeand]

The only issue is...it could get away to India really easily.
I think they may be included in the DEI airforce.

[ncc1701e]

Well, you can say exactly the same of this fleet. You are absolutely not sure to sink the Prince of Wales and the Repulse on turn 1. Yes, they may escape.

If you are worried of an Air Superiority group in India, what we can do is to put this UK Air Superiority group in Full Support mode at the start of turn 1.

Let's say:
a. UK Air Superiority group located in Singapore (hex 41, 41) at the start of Pacific 1941 scenario
b. UK Air Superiority group in Full Support mode to be sure to make it fly and fight.
c. UK Air Superiority group will have 1939 Interceptors advancement. Mostly Brewster Buffalo fighters and later Hawker Hurricanes.
d. This UK Air Superiority group will have an experience of 40% only.
e. This UK Air Superiority group will have a strength of 5/20 only.

Something that gives about 80% of chance to destroy it when it will intercept the Japanese bombers coming to sink the ships.
More historical imo.

If the following is implemented (below link), we may also put Japanese escort fighters in the area (hex 36, 48) at the start of the scenario. For example, the 10th Air Div (Escort Fighters 1942) that is in the Deployment queue coming January 7th, 1942.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5069121

[stjeand]

Well in my scenario I plan to test...I changed the Lark force to Aussies...
Upped night move to 9

May add a plane for the UK BUT...will have to take some air from the DEI...which is fine.

Having the plane there not in full support would be a requirement else you will sink nothing, and there need be at least a chance.

Perhaps there is way to keep the fighters in that area...let me think about it...

Since my scenario is more for slowing the Japanese not causing more plane losses that they can't fix early, which they did not lose much early.

[ncc1701e]

The thing is I find that Singapore is captured too quickly. Historically, it was February 15th 1942. I wonder if one more Indian division southeast of Kuala Lumpur is not needed. Since it is a division, no ZOC. So, 25th Army should still be able to capture Kuala Lumpur on turn 1.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Having the plane there not in full support would be a requirement else you will sink nothing, and there need be at least a chance.

Are you sure of this? I never tested it, I am not very good with the editor.

[stjeand]

Well it will shoot down to many Japanese planes for sure...it is already hard enough to sink the 2 ships.

Singapore falls quickly because the DEI does.
When the DEI falls it get cut off.

IF the DEI lasts until Feb the unit there lasts close to that...

But Singapore should fall before the DEI since the Japanese required it as a staging ground for their invasion.

[ncc1701e]

Singapore can fall quickly without the DEI. The only key location to have is Bandar Lampung even if the DEI has not surrendered.

[ncc1701e]

And, still on the topic of the RAF in the Pacific, there was also the No. 67 squadron of the RAF, made up mostly of New Zealanders, flying Buffaloes in the defense of Rangoon against the Japanese invasion of Burma.

So yes, the Air Superiority group of Singapore was in India few months later to defend Rangoon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._67_Squadron_RAF

The true origins of No. 67 Squadron RAF date from its so-called "re-formation" during World War II at Kallang Airport in Malaya on 12 March 1941. It was equipped with the Brewster Buffalo, an aeroplane that was outclassed in Europe, but considered adequate to build up the defences in Asia. In October, it handed on its aircraft to No. 488 Squadron RNZAF and moved to Burma, taking on instead the Buffaloes of No. 60 Squadron RAF. The inadequacy of the Buffaloes led to their replacement with Hawker Hurricanes in February 1942, but the Japanese offensive could not be halted and by March 1942 the squadron "ceased to be effective". The squadron re-assembled at Alipore and formed part of the defence of Calcutta, converting to Spitfires in February 1944. The squadron disbanded officially on 23 August 1945 at Akyab, but kept its aircraft till the end of the month.

There is a lack of Air Superiority group in the Pacific 1941 scenario on both sides (Japan and Allies) imo.

[stjeand]

Since a squadron is around 20 planes...what is that in WPP?
I know in WPE each counter represents 300+ planes so this would be maybe a 1/20.
Could that be why it does not exist?

I expect there to be tons of squadrons around that are not listed. probably one at every airfield on the map. Just too many to account for.
If aircraft counters could break down then maybe it would be okay to put them all out.

[kennonlightfoot]

Most of my tests it takes until Feb 1st to take Singapore assuming you don't complete its isolation until the second turn. Bandar usually falls on first turn because it is easy to do. Kula Lumpur usually takes two turns because you have to first get rid of the two Indian units to get there. Then the garrison starts starving but that takes a few turns. On Feb 1st you can take Singapore by attacking the garrison with some air support. Or you can wait until Feb 15th and walk in with little or no resistance.

As for air superiority, the planes the allies, especially the UK, had in the Pacific at the start of the war were little more than target practice for the Japanese. Also, have to remember that these counters aren't squadrons but large formations of planes. Based on the number of units they are at least "Air Divisions" and close to representing "Air Armies". The Japanese had 85 Squadrons in 1940. The UK did bring in some Hurricanes but not enough to keep the Japanese from having complete air superiority and forcing there withdrawal.

War in the Pacific represents this well since on its scale there are squadrons of Buffaloes and other obsolete bombers based in and around Singapore. They don't accomplish much.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Most of my tests it takes until Feb 1st to take Singapore assuming you don't complete its isolation until the second turn. Bandar usually falls on first turn because it is easy to do. Kuala Lumpur usually takes two turns because you have to first get rid of the two Indian units to get there.

I can take Kuala Lumpur on turn 1, 100% of the time. Don't forget that division don't have ZOC.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Since a squadron is around 20 planes...what is that in WPP?
I know in WPE each counter represents 300+ planes so this would be maybe a 1/20.
Could that be why it does not exist?

I expect there to be tons of squadrons around that are not listed. probably one at every airfield on the map. Just too many to account for.
If aircraft counters could break down then maybe it would be okay to put them all out.

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

As for air superiority, the planes the allies, especially the UK, had in the Pacific at the start of the war were little more than target practice for the Japanese. Also, have to remember that these counters aren't squadrons but large formations of planes. Based on the number of units they are at least "Air Divisions" and close to representing "Air Armies". The Japanese had 85 Squadrons in 1940. The UK did bring in some Hurricanes but not enough to keep the Japanese from having complete air superiority and forcing there withdrawal.

War in the Pacific represents this well since on its scale there are squadrons of Buffaloes and other obsolete bombers based in and around Singapore. They don't accomplish much.

Thank you both to bring this point.

1. Considering that the AVG First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Republic of China Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, were flying on Curtis P-40B Warhawk aircraft.
2. Considering that the group consisted of three fighter squadrons of around 30 aircraft each
3. Considering that the Flying Tigers are on the map and rated as follow:
->> a. Air Superiority group
->> b. Advancement: 1939 Interceptors
->> c. Strength: 10/20

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I think we have our numbers: 90 fighter planes = 10/20. Let's say 9/20. 10 planes equal 1 point.

[ncc1701e]

Now, let's check the Royal Air Force Far East Command (OOB 8th December 1941):
http://www.niehorster.org/017_britain/4 ... /_raf.html

Burgroup or No 221 Group
60(B) RAF - 18 x Blenheim I
67(F) RAF - 16 x Buffalo

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Norgroup or No 223 Group
21(F) RAAF - 12 x Buffalo
27(NF) RAF - 12 Blenheim I F
62(B) RAF - 18 x Blenheim II

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No 224 Group
453(F) RAAF - 18 x Buffalo
34(B) RAF - 17 x Blenheim IV
488(F) RNZAF - 17 x Buffalo
243(F) RAF - 15 x Buffalo

And, I don't talk of the Beaufort and of the Vildebeest (both torpedo-bombers)

Fighters: 16 + 12 + 18 + 17 + 15 = 78 planes so let's say we need an UK Air Superiority Group (Far East RAAF Fighter Group) at a strength of 8/20 (1939 Interceptors).
Bombers: 18 + 12 + 18 + 17 = 65 planes so let's say we need an UK Tactical Bomber Group (Far East RAAF Bomber Command) at a strength of 6/20 (1939 Close Support).

[ncc1701e]

And on the other side:
http://niehorster.org/014_japan/41-12-0 ... ya_01.html

3rd Air Division
http://niehorster.org/014_japan/41-12-0 ... div-03.htm

If I count only the fighters, I have 183 fighters to put on the map:
24 x Ki-27
35 x Ki-43 (Oscar)
6 x Ki-27
36 x Ki-27
42 x Ki-27b
39 x Ki-27b

So a Japanese Air Superiority Group of a strength of 18/20...

Unfortunately, the game does not even considered them. The 3rd Air Division is just a tactical bomber unit. Why??

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I miss air superiority units...

[stjeand]

I sadly am not doing the research you are...

Questions to ask...

DEI planes...did they have as many as they did or is it including some of the UK air?
How about India?

And least we forget that the Flying Tigers I am SURE includes Chinese aircraft. They had a LOT of planes just not good ones.
They had over 300 fighters and 100 were the Flying Tigers...

So I am not sure how the numbers work out overall.

[AlvaroSousa]

It is not in scale with the game. If I start adding these tiny air groups that basically do nothing they will complicate game balance which is the stage we are at right now in the game.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

DEI planes...did they have as many as they did or is it including some of the UK air?

DEI is here:
http://www.niehorster.org/016_netherlan ... y_air.html

ORIGINAL: stjeand

How about India?

Good question, I don't find Indian Air Force here:
http://www.niehorster.org/017_britain/4 ... r-east.htm