Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow Axis (HLYA) vs Guctony (Soviet)

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I would probably just not use the Stukas for airbase bombing and reserve them for ground support where needed after the Soviet VVS is battered/eliminated near the border.

Now, you can use Stukas too to bomb airfields on T1.

We have seven groups of Ju 87 which would be able to destroy about 350 Soviet airframes (+/-50); Also, we can send them unescorted at 8,000 ft without fearing interceptors by using the "34 method". What you said about them having a dive-bombing bonus at 8,000 ft make them usefull again because I only used my Stukas lower in order to avoid too many Flak losses. Now, they might lose a dozen aircraft to AA fire and a few operational losses but it seems worth for destroying 350+ soviet Fighters (If I'm doing T1 airfield attack, I'm aiming at destroying as many Soviet fighters as possible, like HLYA did, because our auto-intercepting 109s will slaughter more of their bombers during the ground phase at a lower casuality price).

Actually, the only aircraft with bombing capability that I'm not sure is worth sending to hit Soviet airbases on T1 is the Bf 110 because mines are consistently doing very little damage (or I just didn't find the good setting to use them efficiently). Maybe a very low altitude strike (1,000-2,000 ft) can increase their bombing damage with 12 x 50kg GPHE Bombs payload. The number of aircraft per strike I'm using for Bf 110 is 9 and I'm setting 6 strikes/Group, which total less than 2 sorties per a/c. So, I can take a few more operational losses for low alt flying only if this is worth the damages caused.

[metaphore]

My test bed for T1 airfield attack is to use the two big airfields at Suwalki and Radczki for their room. From there, I can also target the big Soviet Fighter forces at Alytus, Orany and Bialystock and see what happen.

I'll first get rid of all the aircraft not participating in airstrikes by mass-sending them to Axis Reserve (fighters, transport, Recon, etc.) with CR interface, clearing all the air bases on the map, then it's easier to rebase level bombers and tactical bombers as I wish. I'll put everything I'm testing under Luftflotte 2., using intermediate Fliegerkorps command if needed for ADs creation.

I'm going to post immediately what kind of damage 7 groups of Stukas can do to those Soviet bases, sending 2-3 unescorted groups at 8,000 ft to hit them (and there is enough Soviet fighters packed on those 3 bases to absorb 350+ losses).

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: metaphore

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
I would probably just not use the Stukas for airbase bombing and reserve them for ground support where needed after the Soviet VVS is battered/eliminated near the border.

Now, you can use Stukas too to bomb airfields on T1.

We have seven groups of Ju 87 which would be able to destroy about 350 Soviet airframes (+/-50); Also, we can send them unescorted at 8,000 ft without fearing interceptors by using the "34 method". What you said about them having a dive-bombing bonus at 8,000 ft make them usefull again because I only used my Stukas lower in order to avoid too many Flak losses. Now, they might lose a dozen aircraft to AA fire and a few operational losses but it seems worth for destroying 350+ soviet Fighters (If I'm doing T1 airfield attack, I'm aiming at destroying as many Soviet fighters as possible, like HLYA did, because our auto-intercepting 109s will slaughter more of their bombers during the ground phase at a lower casuality price).

Actually, the only aircraft with bombing capability that I'm not sure is worth sending to hit Soviet airbases on T1 is the Bf 110 because mines are consistently doing very little damage (or I just didn't find the good setting to use them efficiently). Maybe a very low altitude strike (1,000-2,000 ft) can increase their bombing damage with 12 x 50kg GPHE Bombs payload. The number of aircraft per strike I'm using for Bf 110 is 9 and I'm setting 6 strikes/Group, which total less than 2 sorties per a/c. So, I can take a few more operational losses for low alt flying only if this is worth the damages caused.

There is a limit on the total aircraft you can reach within range without taking an astronomical amount of losses on long haul bombing. Thus, why I sent 110's back for retraining. But you are correct on the Stukas use and should be used but seem to be a glass canon with lots of loss potential. Is it worth it? If it is then I would do it

Just a note that I moved my fighters forward all the way past Minsk in the Center and past Rovno in the South. The Soviets just ran out of bombers for me to intercept.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

There is a limit on the total aircraft you can reach within range without taking an astronomical amount of losses on long haul bombing. Thus, why I sent 110's back for retraining. But you are correct on the Stukas use and should be used but seem to be a glass canon with lots of loss potential. Is it worth it? If it is then I would do it

I do think that the limit is rather set by the number of groups at disposal rather than the lack of in range targets, even without using ext. fuel tanks. I could use twice the number of level bombers that we have! I do think that long haul losses can be mitigated but it's always a trade off vs efficiency.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just a note that I moved my fighters forward all the way past Minsk in the Center and past Rovno in the South. The Soviets just ran out of bombers for me to intercept.

Are the rebasing support crew exp. in enemy territory not too much of an issue then for auto-intercept?

[metaphore]

firt try result: 238 Stuka sorties, 13 lost for 324 Soviet aircaft destroyed

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: metaphore

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

There is a limit on the total aircraft you can reach within range without taking an astronomical amount of losses on long haul bombing. Thus, why I sent 110's back for retraining. But you are correct on the Stukas use and should be used but seem to be a glass canon with lots of loss potential. Is it worth it? If it is then I would do it

I do think that the limit is rather set by the number of groups at disposal rather than the lack of in range targets, even without using ext. fuel tanks. I could use twice the number of level bombers that we have! I do think that long haul losses can be mitigated but it's always a trade off vs efficiency.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just a note that I moved my fighters forward all the way past Minsk in the Center and past Rovno in the South. The Soviets just ran out of bombers for me to intercept.

Are the rebasing support crew exp. in enemy territory not too much of an issue then for auto-intercept?

Ya, the bug with the Air support crew experience hurts. I got a few interceptions. I just went ahead with the turn since the fix is probably far off anyway But of note is that the Soviets ran out of bombers flying ground support at all. No bombers were coming to a slew of attacks only some fighters which auto-intercept doesn't intercept it seems like.

[metaphore]

Losses are 11 due to AA and 2 operational:

[Iam5not8]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Were the 2 interceptions long haul bombing runs or stukas?

1st was Stuka
2nd was HE111

But both were on airfields close to the border.

In the order of Directives, I try to focus first on the figher ones ofc, close to the border, and step by step getting inside Soviet Union. So far I dont pary real attention to the flak.

When I'll have time, I'll will revisit this Air T1, with your inputs on Manual Mission settings.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Were the 2 interceptions long haul bombing runs or stukas?

1st was Stuka
2nd was HE111

But both were on airfields close to the border.

In the order of Directives, I try to focus first on the figher ones ofc, close to the border, and step by step getting inside Soviet Union. So far I dont pary real attention to the flak.

When I'll have time, I'll will revisit this Air T1, with your inputs on Manual Mission settings.

When you fear that your bombers will be intercepted, just set an AD for this group only; then send them 1 by 1 to hit the objective at the optimum altitude to avoid flak but doing max damage. They would be barely undetectable and, if one flight is unlucky (very few are) even 100% loss rate will give a single bomber shot down.

The trade off is that the maximum number of strike that one AD can generate is 34 (usually enough to have at least 1 sortie per bomber available in one group, even with a full strengh group). If less aircraft than 34 are disponible, some will fly twice.

Also, AA losses will increase, but not that much.

That's why I'm calling it the "34-method".

[metaphore]

Just run seven Stuka groups raid nr.2.
Results: exactly 350 soviet aircraft destroyed and exactly 12 Stuka lost (11 to AA and 1 operational). My ballpack estimation was quite good!

[metaphore]

Here is the detail of the 1st strike on Alytus by StG1 during test nr.2:

[metaphore]

Here are the results of 2nd test.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

All very good information & I love the min/maxing. Thank you so much for sharing.

I think at this point we should start a thread to share more information for people to see more in depth look at Air. Would you mind starting that Metaphore?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real Turn update

Riga

I debated long and hard to take Riga. I decided at the last moment I would send a single PZ Division North. NKVD couldn't take the pressure and "shattered". This is not abnormal since the 22nd NKVD division is understrength and is prone to retreating, and in this instance, shattering even at less than 2 to 1 odds. I am kind of glad it is gone for a bit, those darn NKVD divisions are a pain in the arse (so are the regiments)

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real Turn update

Center pockets

I have not moved all my HQ's into place yet and have to do a great deal of re-org. I won't have access to the 2 extra AHQ's since we are playing with new house rules removing those. So will take me a bit to get things in order and in command control across the fronts. As seen here I bust the Soviets out of their fortifications turn 1 because of the reduced movement to attack. Granted you can keep them there and get some more men as POW's but can be a pain over a few turns. My way of doing it is get rid of them "all" next turn and as seen here I have them stacked up and surrounded with no way "out" or "in" to save them so I don't mind sharing because it will not happen. Well there is one way some may get out but my fighters will be ready


Again, I have not finished all the moves and have not finished HQ moves for sure yet.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real Turn update

Rail Conversion Center

Trying something a bit different this time taking the 2 FBDs to Center. Converting dual track and the single track as seen in this picture to meet up a short way ahead

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real turn update

North Pockets

All Soviets should be POW's next turn.

Again, still have some moves to do but gives you a very good idea what I did. No thrust at all North towards Leningrad other than Riga & Ventspils taken.

I am playing some things different here this game.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real turn update

Minsk

I push east of Minsk. Will see how the Soviets react on what I do here next turn.

Again, still have more moves to do.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real Turn Update

South

I clear out the Kovel area of Soviets which retreat to the east marked in light blue. I clear out the tank and mech divisions which retreat to the north marked in blue. I surround the Brody area south of Rovno and beef up my regiments with SU's for a possible Soviet Counter Attack. Could have other problems next turn but that is fine. I love Soviets staying close

I am converting two dual track lines one from Brest-Litovsk & the other going through Lvov marked with orange arrow. I do not release the Southern Front.

Yes, Jubjub those are Regiments out there for Soviet pickings

I am sure some people are curious how I got the units to route from the Rovno area to the North on the blue arrow It isn't that hard at all. At least it puts them out of the way for a bit

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Turn 1 Real Turn Update

Southwest of Lvov

Finally the last little section I cut off and surround.