Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips

[jubjub]

Flying unescorted just isn't worth the risk. You need to put every strike in just the right order to ensure no interceptions are flown, and just one
misstep could see a bombing strike wiped, which could allow more reactions to occur, quickly snowballing into disaster. There is a much simpler
approach that can keep losses <100 planes while getting more kills.

40 JU-88's with 10 escorts can wipe out almost any airbase in a single sortie with no risk. Once you know this, you can make large bombing directives
that cover 3-6 airbases without having to micromanage a directive for each one. There are some airbases that need to be bombed twice, and it's easy
enough to order an extra strike on these. Optimizing the # of sorties more than this is counterproductive.

I strongly recommend using JU-88's with the 28x 50kg bombs as much as possible for turn 1 bombing. The auto loadout often selects drop tanks, which
is bad because we need these to be carrying bombs, not fuel. Stukas are not nearly as efficient bombing airbases and are very useful in GS/GA, so
don't use them to bomb airfields. They should be set to rest or to bomb tank/mech divisions on day 2 or later.

BF110's are very useful to bomb distant targets since they can take care of themselves and don't need escorts. They can get very far with drop tanks
and a good payload. Directly assign these to the long range directives so they don't fly in the short range bombing missions.

The hungarian and romanian bombers are very good for turn 1 bombing, and using them can boost your kills by a few hundred and keep your German
bombers from taking damage. The Romanians in particular have hurricane fighters that can reach Odessa, and this ability lets you bomb that airfield
with fighter cover. They also have long range bombers that can hit the Crimea, so I send them in to take out the fighters based there before the
Heinkels make their run.

The results are shown below. You can easily get over 4,300 kills after the ground phase. Note the high number of high value targets (LR bombers, recon, transports) that are killed.

[jubjub]

Directives shown below. The long range bombing strikes need to be last in the queue, but otherwise, the order doesn't really matter.

[carlkay58]

After a few attempts to figure out how to do this, I decided on some map shots with the bombing locations. So Luftflotte 1 bombed well up the Baltics to get some bombers based to the north near Tallinn. You can see that there were two missions intercepted (the interceptions show up near the border not by the actual interception hex).

[carlkay58]

Now to Luftflotte 2 which struck well to the east and north of Minsk much deeper than I usually strike on turn 1. Once again there were two interceptions.

[carlkay58]

And last is Luftflotte 4 which were actually the first missions I defined. Strangely enough there were no interceptions down here. There usually are at least one or two but this run did not generate any. In case you wonder what that is about - I load a game and setup air directives, test them, refine them, and then run them again. All in a non-FOW game vs the AI. This allows some good testing and such in preparation for games against the AI or humans when it counts. These results are actually from my new game vs Tyrone which I will be starting an AAR for soon.

[carlkay58]

All attacks were setup as AUTO, no escorts, 4000 altitude, single mission, Very High priority vs airbases with fighters (so they fly first), High priority vs airbases without fighters (so they fly second). There were 32 in LF4, 22 in LF2, and 10 in LF1. Note that the depth of airbase bombing was MUCH deeper than I have previously bombed on turn 1. Most of the really deep raids were on airbases with no fighters - except the Baltic ones which only had a few fighters (less than 10) at the bases.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

All attacks were setup as AUTO, no escorts, 4000 altitude, single mission, Very High priority vs airbases with fighters (so they fly first), High priority vs airbases without fighters (so they fly second). There were 32 in LF4, 22 in LF2, and 10 in LF1. Note that the depth of airbase bombing was MUCH deeper than I have previously bombed on turn 1. Most of the really deep raids were on airbases with no fighters - except the Baltic ones which only had a few fighters (less than 10) at the bases.

I think the risk/reward is just not there in the northern baltics. It's just a bunch of SB-2's that will probably get killed during the ground phase anyway. The Leningrad air commander is also solid.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: jubjub
Flying unescorted just isn't worth the risk. You need to put every strike in just the right order to ensure no interceptions are flown, and just one
misstep could see a bombing strike wiped, which could allow more reactions to occur, quickly snowballing into disaster. There is a much simpler
approach that can keep losses <100 planes while getting more kills.

Hi jujub,
Nice to have you here
That's exactly the purpose of this thread, showing that there isn't only one way to do it but different methods for different game style or strategy.
Everyone is welcome to explain the way they do it. Next, people will take some bit here and there for making their own.

Or flying unescorted might be worth the risk if it's done properly -and without too much micro-management-, while no disaster could happen? Nonetheless I do agree that your method is much simpler and also seems pretty quite effective. Can you tell us how many sorties were launched during the Air Phase, please? Looking at the op. losses, it seems not that many?

40 JU-88's with 10 escorts can wipe out almost any airbase in a single sortie with no risk. Once you know this, you can make large bombing directives
that cover 3-6 airbases without having to micromanage a directive for each one. There are some airbases that need to be bombed twice, and it's easy
enough to order an extra strike on these. Optimizing the # of sorties more than this is counterproductive.

But but... I could not build my unescorted missions this way and I do think that they are not less productive than yours, and potentially can achieve better results overall (one being that I can pick those targets I value highly instead of just aiming for the max Soviet airframe kill count - but I could do that too).

I strongly recommend using JU-88's with the 28x 50kg bombs as much as possible for turn 1 bombing. The auto loadout often selects drop tanks, which
is bad because we need these to be carrying bombs, not fuel.

Sound advice.

Stukas are not nearly as efficient bombing airbases and are very useful in GS/GA, so don't use them to bomb airfields. They should be set to rest or to bomb tank/mech divisions on day 2 or later.

I might use them now that carlkay told me that they need to be flown at 8,000+ ft to get their dive-bombing bonus. I've tested twice a 7 group strike on 3 big Soviet airbases full of fighters with no escort and get 350 kills for 12 losses (Flak 11, Op. 1) I forgot to check it and flew them with default payload (fuel tanks), so maybe there is still some potential to be explored. 177 aircraft flying 238 sorties to destroy 350+ fighters for 12 losses doesn't look too bad. After T1, they can take a break for a few turns.

BF110's are very useful to bomb distant targets since they can take care of themselves and don't need escorts. They can get very far with drop tanks
and a good payload. Directly assign these to the long range directives so they don't fly in the short range bombing missions.

Bf 110 is still a puzzle for me. I can't get them to bomb efficiently and they will usually suffer badly if engaged in A2A combat. Above, carlkay posted a test with 51 Bf 110 losses while there is only 117 in four groups (+ stabs). It's just 44% of the Group strength wiped out in one week! I really need to invest some time trying to find how to use them efficiently. But, until then, they will be retrained as fighter

The hungarian and romanian bombers are very good for turn 1 bombing, and using them can boost your kills by a few hundred and keep your German
bombers from taking damage. The Romanians in particular have hurricane fighters that can reach Odessa, and this ability lets you bomb that airfield
with fighter cover. They also have long range bombers that can hit the Crimea, so I send them in to take out the fighters based there before the
Heinkels make their run.

That's a very good thing to know, thank you. So far, I haven't really tested anything with Axis Allies. I simply do know that they can't fly as low as the German due to their experience level (more op.losses) and this was an issue with my system.

The results are shown below. You can easily get over 4,300 kills after the ground phase. Note the high number of high value targets (LR bombers, recon, transports) that are killed.

Indeed, That's a great opening and thank you for sharing it.

[GibsonPete]

When testing against the AI I have found that repeated test runs may result in 'intercepts 'spawning. The AI seems to learn from a player repeating the air execution phase. Closing the game down and restarting will normally wipe the slate clean.

[Hardradi]

The AI cant be that smart. I think it is something else.

EDIT: I have the same feeling.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: jubjub
Stukas are not nearly as efficient bombing airbases and are very useful in GS/GA, so don't use them to bomb airfields. They should be set to rest or to bomb tank/mech divisions on day 2 or later.

I've run further tests with simply one AD for each Stuka Group, in order to bomb Soviet airfields (unescorted) and see if it was consistant with previous ones.

This time I've changed their payload to 1 x 250 kg + 4 x 50 kg instead of default 500 kg + fuel tanks and also bombed 7 different targets (2 airfields were constantly cleaned of Soviet aircraft, so I guess it's possible to do a little bit more damage than that).

This is the targeted Airfields (I didn't rebase them, so I had little choice):

[metaphore]

This is the first test results and ADs

[metaphore]

And the second one.
Also, I've made a few more but there is not much variation worth to be shown and, to be noted, there still wasn't a single interception despite the attack on Cherlena, inside the triangle of 3 other bases with their full fighter force.

[metaphore]

Also, to be noted, the much higher losses inflicted to the Group attacking Bialystok from Przasnysz (5th AD).

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
After a few attempts to figure out how to do this, I decided on some map shots with the bombing locations. So Luftflotte 1 bombed well up the Baltics to get some bombers based to the north near Tallinn. You can see that there were two missions intercepted (the interceptions show up near the border not by the actual interception hex).

Hi carlkay,
You can avoid being intercepted when hitting those Airfields (or suffer very little losses if you are). I've rebased in range (without fuel tanks) those 8 groups of Ju 88 from Luftflotte 1 at the northern frontier airfield and set up 8 ADs to hit all those targets at the same priority level (and did nothing else):

[metaphore]

Results: no interception.

[Hardradi]

In one of the AAR threads it was mentioned by two knowledgeable players that Ju-87s do not bomb unless the air directive is set to 8000ft. I do not think this is correct. My Stuka's still air base bomb at 6000ft or less.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

In one of the AAR threads it was mentioned by two knowledgeable players that Ju-87s do not bomb unless the air directive is set to 8000ft. I do not think this is correct. My Stuka's still air base bomb at 6000ft or less.

Yes, they do some (level) bombing lower than 8,000 ft but they do not dive-bomb (with bonus) unless set at 8,000+ ft. Meaning that it's much less effective to set them for lower altitude.

[Hardradi]

Ah, thanks for tip. I have never had consistently good results from them. Will give it a try.



You can also take on Tallinn from Memel. Here, I use KG 1 with the 50kg's. Its a bit risky, sometimes they will scramble. The whole base can be wiped out. They used to even scramble to the bases to the south in Estonia, not sure now with the patch changes. I will have to have another go up there. I also re-base most of the KGs in the north forward. KG 1 takes on the far north (from Memel), KG 67 north and KG 77 the east.

Daugavpils and Minsk (and beyond) can also be targeted. This time you convert some of the BF 110 to fighters (they run at 80% efficiency). They provide escort protection for your bombers.

The bases along the Dnepr are very difficult to deal with, I leave them alone (havent tried with the new patch). Kiev area is also very hard but I am getting better results now.

All the bases within the Dnepr bend can be wiped out including Odessa and Ochakov. This leaves the Crimea which is easily cleaned out. I have never seen the fighters there scramble. Crimea can also be done without taking out Odessa and Ochakov by angling further south over the Black Sea.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Ah, thanks for tip. I have never had consistently good results from them. Will give it a try.



You can also take on Tallinn from Memel. Here, I use KG 1 with the 50kg's. Its a bit risky, sometimes they will scramble. The whole base can be wiped out. They used to even scramble to the bases to the south in Estonia, not sure now with the patch changes. I will have to have another go up there. I also re-base most of the KGs in the north forward. KG 1 takes on the far north (from Memel), KG 67 north and KG 77 the east.

Daugavpils and Minsk (and beyond) can also be targeted. This time you convert some of the BF 110 to fighters (they run at 80% efficiency). They provide escort protection for your bombers.

The bases along the Dnepr are very difficult to deal with, I leave them alone (havent tried with the new patch). Kiev area is also very hard but I am getting better results now.

All the bases within the Dnepr bend can be wiped out including Odessa and Ochakov. This leaves the Crimea which is easily cleaned out. I have never seen the fighters there scramble. Crimea can also be done without taking out Odessa and Ochakov by angling further south over the Black Sea.

You should try that from Memel and, then, tell me if you have been intercepted: