Regarding the Derby House Principles Announcement

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
This is why one my posts was deleted with a quote that I don't think was offensive at all.[:(]

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield
So... er... how do the Derby House Principles relate to the censoring and closing of my thread about the Power & Revolution wargame, pray tell...?

I can't speak to any specifics on that, but before I put this post up our moderators were acting on previous instructions. When I saw what was going on in general, I realized while this could become political, it deserved clarification and a fair discussion.

As far as post in other threads unrelated to this, I don't see that those would be related to this discussion. There are forum rules about avoiding political discussions or subjects in general.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant
Not denying that Erik is motivated by expanding the player base as a whole - something the industry everywhere would benefit from. But the Derby House Principles were originally developed by and focused on the professional / NatSec world.

Yes, but the statement was not limited to that, despite its origins and therefore the community here where you originally copied that announcement deserved a chance to discuss it and understand my point of view on this.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Karri
If you want more people to play your wargames, drop the prices (there's a reason why the player base is aged, they've got the most disposable income). Or at least introduce regional pricing. Paying lip service to American politics isn't probably of interest to anyone at all. Or you know, maybe upgrade the forums, do some marketing. Just saying, I don't think the reason more people aren't flocking to play these games is that the existing player base is full of racists, chauvinists etc. I assumed it's quite welcoming already...? There are one or two persons in these forums who always have a bad attitude in general, but that's about as far as those sins go.

And it's 2021. These sorts of statements were the rage like two decades ago. Coming out with these bulletpoints now is like you've been living under a rock or something.

I don't see this as a particularly constructive reply or one that characterizes the point of view I expressed in the original post accurately.

We are unable to do regional pricing in our store at present. We do have some of that via Steam.

No lip service was being paid, the forums are in the process of being upgraded, marketing is ongoing daily - we have multiple full-time marketing staff that do nothing but marketing.

I made no negative claims about the existing player base, but I think there's more we can do to expand it.

As for living under a rock, well there you may have me. Given that I spend so much time focused on history, there are definitely times when I feel that I am a bit of an anachronism.

Regards,

- Erik

[OldSarge]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant
Not denying that Erik is motivated by expanding the player base as a whole - something the industry everywhere would benefit from. But the Derby House Principles were originally developed by and focused on the professional / NatSec world.

Yes, but the statement was not limited to that, despite its origins and therefore the community here where you originally copied that announcement deserved a chance to discuss it and understand my point of view on this.

Regards,

- Erik

Thank you, Erik. I understood the intent of the original statement and am a bit surprised that it got misconstrued. As the Bard of Avon might say, much ado about nothing! Time to dust off the old Kenneth Branagh collection.

I've always tried to follow the Golden Rule so there isn't much to fuss about here. The old Bard must be having a good laugh! [:D]

[Karri]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I don't see this as a particularly constructive reply or one that characterizes the point of view I expressed in the original post accurately.

We are unable to do regional pricing in our store at present. We do have some of that via Steam.

No lip service was being paid, the forums are in the process of being upgraded, marketing is ongoing daily - we have multiple full-time marketing staff that do nothing but marketing.

I made no negative claims about the existing player base, but I think there's more we can do to expand it.

As for living under a rock, well there you may have me. Given that I spend so much time focused on history, there are definitely times when I feel that I am a bit of an anachronism.

Regards,

- Erik

Re-reading my post I can see why it's not constructive criticism, though my pessimism and personal gripe about and with such announcements stands (doesn't matter if it's Matrix Games or any generic brand celebrating the pride month to grab some of that cash). Obviously, there is nothing wrong as such with becoming more inclusive.

However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Karri
However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

It's a fair point, although it technically violates no forum rules. Personally, I would be happy to have a forum where we also had a thread where our many female wargamers also posted pictures they like, but I can see that it is not a great first impression and would fit within what I discussed above about unintentional barriers.

Regards,

- Erik

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Karri
However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

It's a fair point, although it technically violates no forum rules. Personally, I would be happy to have a forum where we also had a thread where our many female wargamers also posted pictures they like, but I can see that it is not a great first impression and would fit within what I discussed above about unintentional barriers.

Regards,

- Erik

I will not argue this. I understand the reasoning.

I will only say that it is sad that we can not post pictures of the sort that are commonly found in magazines that target women.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Karri

However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

Are you sure thread in question is objectifying women instead appreciating them? [&:]
Okay, I might not understand the difference between the two [8|]

[Karri]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

Are you sure thread in question is objectifying women instead appreciating them? [&:]
Okay, I might not understand the difference between the two [8|]

I dare say that if you are just concentrating on physical qualities you are objectifying. If you don't understand the difference between objectifying and appreciating you should definitely question yourself a bit.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's a fair point, although it technically violates no forum rules. Personally, I would be happy to have a forum where we also had a thread where our many female wargamers also posted pictures they like, but I can see that it is not a great first impression and would fit within what I discussed above about unintentional barriers.

Regards,

- Erik

Yeah, I'd agree, thing is that I have never seen such a thread (or say, women posting about women, or men posting about men) on any forum really. Apart from some really weird fanfiction/groups, and that strange Japanese Manga subgenre that is apparently very popular with women. I find them all equally cringe though, which doesn't really mean they are wrong. As said, doesn't break forum rules, but does set a certain tone.

[DD696]

So it begins.

The threads containing pictures of women must be locked. How about the one on all things football next. It does contain pictures of women exposing their legs, and men also.

In the same vein, all pictures of men must be vilified, for they may be considered to glorify the masculinity of man. Especially those of men in uniform, without a shirt, or petting cats. Photographs or illustrations that glorify the art of warfare are especially heinous and many object to them, particularly women.

[Curtis Lemay]

Nothing says "inclusion" like banning topics of discussion.

[MrRoadrunner]

And, here we go.

RR

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: DD696
So it begins.

The threads containing pictures of women must be locked. How about the one on all things football next. It does contain pictures of women exposing their legs, and men also.

In the same vein, all pictures of men must be vilified, for they may be considered to glorify the masculinity of man. Especially those of men in uniform, without a shirt, or petting cats. Photographs or illustrations that glorify the art of warfare are especially heinous and many object to them, particularly women.

Well, I'm not as good at predicting the future as you are apparently, but I have no such plans. Think of this forum as the entry room of a house. Per the principles above and the reasoning and keeping in mind that the main point of this forum is not to share pictures of our favorite ladies, do you think a wargaming club that wanted to be welcoming to women would put pictures of scantily clad women on the walls of its entry room?

Are there other places to share pictures of your favorite ladies, including via PM? Yep.

Regards,

- Erik

[JWW]

This is a private forum run by a wargame company. I will judge Matrix/Slitherine on the basis of their game products, not on the basis of topics allowed or not allowed that are not related to their games. There are so many things in the world to be truly concerned about. This is not one of them.

[OldSarge]

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

This is a private forum run by a wargame company. I will judge Matrix/Slitherine on the basis of their game products, not on the basis of topics allowed or not allowed that are not related to their games. There are so many things in the world to be truly concerned about. This is not one of them.

This.

[gamer78]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


We are unable to do regional pricing in our store at present. We do have some of that via Steam.

It is pity regional pricing is not planned. For the last past 5 years in Steam I've observed more games being translated to more different languages. I primaly observed Turkish market, also Russian market they both can benefit from regional pricing. Also simplified Chinese as a language choice is more common than before. There is more demand in games overall as the first choice entertainment.

[Zap]

The saying goes, "be careful what you wish for" Soon, you will be presented with the clarion call of the "principled" who have already pronounced wargaming is a glorification of war and war is evil, thus wargaming and wargamers are evil. You will be called upon to stop producing wargames, shut down your site. When that time comes will you be as courageous to do so? Or do you think you can satisfy the mob with a simple explanation "its a historical recall". Do you think that will satisfy them?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Zap
The saying goes, "be careful what you wish for" Soon, you will be presented with the clarion call of the "principled" who have already pronounced wargaming is a glorification of war and war is evil, thus wargaming and wargamers are evil. You will be called upon to stop producing wargames, shut down your site. When that time comes will you be as courageous to do so? Or do you think you can satisfy the mob with a simple explanation "its a historical recall". Do you think that will satisfy them?

I'm familiar with the slippery slope argument here. I'll refer back to my first post and say that I mean what I wrote there and I have no intention of going down the slope you described.

The entire purpose of us being here is to make strategy games, including wargames, many covering history. History should be presented as it is. So yes, that would be a red line for me if someone were to tell me that wargaming as a hobby is in some way inappropriate. I would argue that a lack of studying history and war is more likely to lead to more of it than less.

That's a separate question from how do we make wargaming less daunting for a larger audience. To me the answer is not to change history or turn wargames into something they are not, but rather to be good ambassadors and to keep everyone in mind when working, teaching or playing.

Regards,

- Erik

[ThomasJay]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Karri

However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

Are you sure thread in question is objectifying women instead appreciating them? [&:]
Okay, I might not understand the difference between the two [8|]

I think what needs to be considered is how prospective female gamers see that post more than the intent of the various posters. A very small sample size, but my 26 year old daughter saw it when she was sitting on the couch by me. Her reaction was it's gross old men and pathetic incels gawking at young women. How many can honestly say they'd feel comfortable reading and replying to that thread in front of girlfriends, wife , daughters or granddaughters?

[operating]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Zap
The saying goes, "be careful what you wish for" Soon, you will be presented with the clarion call of the "principled" who have already pronounced wargaming is a glorification of war and war is evil, thus wargaming and wargamers are evil. You will be called upon to stop producing wargames, shut down your site. When that time comes will you be as courageous to do so? Or do you think you can satisfy the mob with a simple explanation "its a historical recall". Do you think that will satisfy them?

I'm familiar with the slippery slope argument here. I'll refer back to my first post and say that I mean what I wrote there and I have no intention of going down the slope you described.

The entire purpose of us being here is to make strategy games, including wargames, many covering history. History should be presented as it is. So yes, that would be a red line for me if someone were to tell me that wargaming as a hobby is in some way inappropriate. I would argue that a lack of studying history and war is more likely to lead to more of it than less.

That's a separate question from how do we make wargaming less daunting for a larger audience. To me the answer is not to change history or turn wargames into something they are not, but rather to be good ambassadors and to keep everyone in mind when working, teaching or playing.

Regards,

- Erik

I have no doubt you have good intentions, I'd hate to see You, I and others get pushed around with what is coming from the known and unknown. Can't put my finger on it, but it is happening.