Regarding the Derby House Principles Announcement

[Aurelian]

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to make it a hidden thread/forum accessible by invitation only?

I was on a political forum that had that feature. Never seen or knew that forum in a forum existed until I was invited to join.

[Erik Rutins]

Yes, but we only use that for our private development team forums.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to make it a hidden thread/forum accessible by invitation only?

I was on a political forum that had that feature. Never seen or knew that forum in a forum existed until I was invited to join.

Been saying that for years, always ignored. No one ever answers.
Why not have all kinds of forums, with disclaimers, acknowledgment, etc.

[budd]

I’ve been coming to Matrix for a long time. Don’t spend a lot of time in the general forums, usually sticking to games related forums.
That being said, Erik I’ve read your Derby House Principals and, in my opinion, it’s just generalized, subjective pandering. Used to be if it looked like a duck, walked like a duck and quacked like a duck…well, it was a duck. Not so much these days. Most reasonable people can agree that racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are bad things, but it seems the definition of those things varies quite a bit from person to person in today’s world. Seems we can all agree on the extreme cases but there is a growing movement of having a few objecting voices decide things for us all without really proper discussion beforehand.
As far as the Australian Beauties thread, been there a time or two through the years. Don’t think I’ve ever posted in the thread. You said yourself the thread violated no forum rules yet you closed it anyway, why, to not offend? Stick to your rules or change them.
With that being said, it’s your playground and you can set the rules however you like, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect you to follow your own rules when making decisions like this. Whether the thread is closed or not won’t affect my life, and I’ll still be browsing your forums, that’s not my point.

Have a nice day

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo
Been saying that for years, always ignored. No one ever answers.
Why not have all kinds of forums, with disclaimers, acknowledgment, etc.

When we first started this forum, we actually had much more of a free for all. It ended up taking a lot of time to keep up with the moderation, to manage the drama caused as a result and several folks basically stopped talking/gaming with each other as a result of all that. That lead directly to the change in rules (back around 2005, if I recall correctly) to focus on what we had in common rather than allow discussions on politics and such to divide us.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: budd
I’ve been coming to Matrix for a long time. Don’t spend a lot of time in the general forums, usually sticking to games related forums.
That being said, Erik I’ve read your Derby House Principals and, in my opinion, it’s just generalized, subjective pandering. Used to be if it looked like a duck, walked like a duck and quacked like a duck…well, it was a duck. Not so much these days. Most reasonable people can agree that racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are bad things, but it seems the definition of those things varies quite a bit from person to person in today’s world. Seems we can all agree on the extreme cases but there is a growing movement of having a few objecting voices decide things for us all without really proper discussion beforehand.
As far as the Australian Beauties thread, been there a time or two through the years. Don’t think I’ve ever posted in the thread. You said yourself the thread violated no forum rules yet you closed it anyway, why, to not offend? Stick to your rules or change them.
With that being said, it’s your playground and you can set the rules however you like, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect you to follow your own rules when making decisions like this. Whether the thread is closed or not won’t affect my life, and I’ll still be browsing your forums, that’s not my point.

Have a nice day

Thanks Budd, I understand and respect your point of view on this.

Regards,

- Erik

[budd]

Appreciate it that sir. Always appreciated that you try to be even handed and do right by your customers, thank you.

[Erik Rutins]

I should also reinforce that this announcement originally occurred because of the work we do with the Professional Wargaming community. The announcement was not because of you all or this community. It's just that once it was posted here, some of the community took it as a political statement and therefore I started this thread with the explanation in the original post to try to limit misunderstandings or assumptions regarding what this all means and how I see those principles we've adopted applying to our games and our community.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Seems that the discussion is all about the "Aussie Babes" thread. There was no nudity, no disparaging comments, nothing crazy going on, imho. I actually posted a thick women that I'd tap. Most those babes are dead or wrinkled old ladies now. Politics, Religion those shoving their views down other's throat, and my country is better than your country are the real hot buttons to trigger a riot.

Prohibition in the short run, works. Prohibition in the long run, fails. Same could be said following the direction of the wind.

Back in 2000 to 2005, the internet was new. Cultures collided for the first time, since world communication happened. Now that it's 2022 soon, people have chilled out, grown up with Facebook, Twitter, and world opinions.

I'd either lighten up or make another section called, "Bend, but don't break Discussion".

[operating]

I'm wondering how long it will be that pictures of cats will be considered exploiting, or offensive? Something is in the wings that has no end in sight of being censored..! It might not be today's subject, It might might not be today's usage of a language, but sure as heck has all the trappings of a pc culture that is spreading a cloud over most people's Live's. I just find it a abomination and what is even worse that people cower in the pc limelight. It's getting scary to even speak your mind these days due to those who will condemn you for even having an opinion.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: operating
I'm wondering how long it will be that pictures of cats will be considered exploiting, or offensive? Something is in the wings that has no end in sight of being censored..! It might not be today's subject, It might might not be today's usage of a language, but sure as heck has all the trappings of a pc culture that is spreading a cloud over most people's Live's. I just find it a abomination and what is even worse that people cower in the pc limelight. It's getting scary to even speak your mind these days due to those who will condemn you for even having an opinion.

I'll refer you back to my posts above, including the first one. The entire reason I made that post is because I knew folks would be worried that this is a slippery slope, that it means more than it says, etc.

I understand your concern, but I guess all I can say is I have made my intentions and motivations as clear as I can. I don't intend to go further down that slope and I guess for those who have doubts, time will tell.

As a side note, I was just thinking we should have a dog thread as well. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

ORIGINAL: operating

I'm wondering how long it will be that pictures of cats will be considered exploiting, or offensive? Something is in the wings that has no end in sight of being censored..! It might not be today's subject, It might might not be today's usage of a language, but sure as heck has all the trappings of a pc culture that is spreading a cloud over most people's Live's. I just find it a abomination and what is even worse that people cower in the pc limelight. It's getting scary to even speak your mind these days due to those who will condemn you for even having an opinion.

Who's cowering? Banning happens on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Matrix, name it.
What are you going to do?

[Bamilus]

I literally have no problem with this. Their company. Their forum. They can do what they want.

Keep doing you, Erik! You got my support.

[LarryP]

I have been with Matrix since about 2001, and I personally liked Matrix more before they merged with Slitherine. Not going to give details, just my personal feelings. I have opinions on this new policy but it doesn't matter.

God Bless this gaming company, but I won't be around much anymore for many reasons. Thanks Erik!

[vonRocko]

One thing I just don't understand. I'm getting old and maybe a little dense, but what is stopping anyone from playing, developing or designing wargames?
Are "Principles" really necessary? Am I to understand that racism and misogyny are keeping people from playing? If so, that is ridiculous. Except for a few people,
I don't know anyones race or true gender here, nor does it matter. If they had an interest in this hobby they would be playing. This is just another feel good fix,
for something that wasn't broken.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

One thing I just don't understand. I'm getting old and maybe a little dense, but what is stopping anyone from playing, developing or designing wargames?
Are "Principles" really necessary? Am I to understand that racism and misogyny are keeping people from playing? If so, that is ridiculous. Except for a few people,
I don't know anyones race or true gender here, nor does it matter. If they had an interest in this hobby they would be playing. This is just another feel good fix,
for something that wasn't broken.

White, 66, disabled, play lots of war games. Live in Nevada. Well said I think.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Karri

If you don't understand the difference between objectifying and appreciating you should definitely question yourself a bit.

I question myself all the time. Do you ever question yourself? Here's little something for you ( = everyone) to ponder about:
Are beauty contests about objectifying or appreciating women? Should related discussion, photographs, and the like be banned from the forum?
One forum user had created a computer made images (3d models) of a woman in bikini moving wargame miniatures. Does this objectify or appreciate women? Should these posts be deleted and user penalized?
Forum user MrsWargamer had posted a selfie of herself dressed in bikini. Does this objectify or appreciate women (or just her)? Should this post be deleted and MrsWargamer be penalized?

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Nothing says "inclusion" like banning topics of discussion.

Well said, Sir!

ORIGINAL: ThomasJay

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Karri

However, might I direct your attention to threads such as these:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... &mpage=371

If I was a woman and wandered to a strategy game forum, I might wander off somewhere else if the most popular thread in there is about objectifying women.

Are you sure thread in question is objectifying women instead appreciating them? [&:]
Okay, I might not understand the difference between the two [8|]

I think what needs to be considered is how prospective female gamers see that post more than the intent of the various posters. A very small sample size, but my 26 year old daughter saw it when she was sitting on the couch by me. Her reaction was it's gross old men and pathetic incels gawking at young women.

I'm offended! I'm not that old! I haven't gawked that thread nor its pics. I'm a cultured man, and as such I gawk at women (of all ages) in porn [:-]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Also, MMORPGs have much more female players than wargames and everyone knows how cringe character designs in MMO games usually are.

I bet MMORPGs have more male players too.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But I also recognise that in many areas, things are going too far and the message is being lost and distorted. This sort of nonsense, by people with their own warped agendas, simply plays into the hands of the knuckle-dragging Neanderthals who don’t want progress in the first place.

Well phrased, Sir! There was a time when we all, and everyone we know, would stand proudly for the freedom. But these days increasing number of people in our respective countries kneel for authority. You know what I mean. Please don't fall on it, Matrix & Slitherine.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I think that the main problem is that wargaming is sort of an odd masochistic hobby. Like it requires learning stuff and then after one learning stuff, one realises one can't really enjoy a game ever again, just grumble grumble grumble XD .
That is besides generally not being constructed to be constantly rewarding like most of games are. Like it's a fundamentally elite hobby.

Have you played MMORPG? Or even single player RPG? Those are grind man, I tell you. Though I have played through a handful of single player RPGs, I have practically thrown the towel on them.

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to make it a hidden thread/forum accessible by invitation only?

I was on a political forum that had that feature. Never seen or knew that forum in a forum existed until I was invited to join.

Been saying that for years, always ignored. No one ever answers.
Why not have all kinds of forums, with disclaimers, acknowledgment, etc.

Those are dime a dozen all over the Internet. Among the most popular are Twitter and Facebook, which seem to suffer of uneven and erratic moderation. Gab has less moderation, though I haven't seen anything outright illegal (against the law) content on it. Pick your poison and share your account name.

ORIGINAL: operating

I'm wondering how long it will be that pictures of cats will be considered exploiting, or offensive? Something is in the wings that has no end in sight of being censored..! It might not be today's subject, It might might not be today's usage of a language, but sure as heck has all the trappings of a pc culture that is spreading a cloud over most people's Live's. I just find it a abomination and what is even worse that people cower in the pc limelight. It's getting scary to even speak your mind these days due to those who will condemn you for even having an opinion.

If this forum has someone who condems you with rude language, report to forum moderators. If you get banned from this forum for posting pictures of cats or whatever else, go find another forum. Gab (social media platform) has groups (comparable to subforums here) dedicated for wargames. Moderation over there could be more lax than over here, but it's got mute and block buttons for you (this Matrix forum has it too). I am aware about mass spamming & trolling on social media. If one platform gets untenable, ditch it and make an account on another one.


And lastly, thank you Erik Rutins for engaging with us on this discussion. It is encouraging for us lowly users to know that a staff member pays attention and actively takes part in the discussion.

[gamer78]

There was a Paradox fan forum not funded by gaming company(2008-2020) Which I've joined as a moderator, around 100.000 members over the years and we've made 'VIP' sub forums. About some politics and history but didn't go well. General forum activity decreased when people aware of it. They didn't like it.

In here some people saying I'm White and old age is it about US politics they keep repeating that? And Erik seems to be answering them mostly. It seems to contadict Derby House Principles as I've read. If as mentioned "aging wargaming population" is the real problem. Glad they play games by the way. But increasing wargaming around the world to reach other markets not a concern I guess or regional pricing.

[EwaldvonKleist]

The derby house principles all seem reasonable.

Regarding the Australian Beauty thread, i have always found that one to be a bit odd.
Sure this one won't keep a woman from playing if she is already into it but such things do influence the overall image of the company/hobby.

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

The derby house principles all seem reasonable.

Regarding the Australian Beauty thread, i have always found that one to be a bit odd.
Sure this one won't keep a woman from playing if she is already into it but such things do influence the overall image of the company/hobby.

Yes, but not in the way they hope. [8|]