Game Balance

[AlvaroSousa]

The effectiveness route is one I was looking at + combined arms bonus to make air more valuable

[MagicMissile]

Hello everyone,

I agree with a lot of what is said here. I have from the start felt that the Western allies and the Germans are too strong and the Soviets a bit too weak. This follows in my opinion the historical tradition of the board wargames. Balancing these games is really hard maybe even impossible given all the factors in the game so it is not a task I envy anyone to try [:)].

* Problems in the east I think are these. You will invade as early as you can meaning you will have at least 2 maybe 3 more turns of clear weather compared to history. The axis will usually come with a lot of mech units not only the German ones but also 3 maybe even 4 Italian ones. Even if you survive 41 1942 will also see the Soviets more vulnerable than they were in the real war.

Some ideas: Reduce railrepair one hex per turn.
Reduce German oil production at the start of the war. If you look at the 1941 campaign the German oil is at 30% 232 points in any 39 campaign the oil storage will be 100% at something like 750 points I think. 232 points would be too harsh but maybe 5-600 or so would put some limit on German operations. If nothing else it might stop the great Italian mech army [:)]
I also think possibly the Soviet mech move nerf is a bit harsh but maybe not. I havent seen that many games into 1942 and havent played any myself so not sure.

* I cant believe I am saying this but maybe make the German subs more deadly in fact make the escorts more deadly too so both Western allies and the axis have to divert more resources to the BoA away from building land units. This will limit Western allies buildup which seems to me to be a bit too fast and lowering the axis land force as well if they want to pursue a BoA. Another alternative up the cost for mech and arm units so there will be fewer of them. But it is tricky they cant be too few or nothing will happen and we will have WW1 fronts. Finally and more drastic is of course to lower the early war economy for possibly all countries for a bit of a slower buildup.

* Air units need a bit of a buff they were probably too good at the release of the game but after the nerf they are a bit too bad. Building a land unit or a air unit is not a hard choice generally.

* Would be nice if something could be done with the strat bombers. If they were more viable some resources both axis and allied would flow into air units and not into land units as it is now. Also the strategic bombing campaign was a large part of the real war. I think the UK spent 25% of its wartime economy on strat bombers. It is a bit sad that that aspect is missing in the game and the fact that it is missing means players think they are not good enough.

* I agree with Harrybanana I think balance is pretty close but I am in the camp that thinks between equal players the Soviets should not be conquered and the game should be decided in 44 and 45 and I think the game is not there right now and the main reason for that is the fact that the Germans have a too big a chance to knock the Soviets out of the war and that chance needs to come down by a fair amount.

Probably more to say but this is a start.

Edit: And of course after the Soviets have a chance to survive we need to look at how the Germans can survive until 1945.

/MM

[AlvaroSousa]

I have played several late games losing as the Axis. The two main issues I see are this and why I am taking a route maybe others might not approve of.

#1 Allies can field too many armor and mech.
#2 Armor and mech super dominate.

Perhaps a cost adjustment is the right move.

In the fist 2 games with Hadros he build a fairly balanced force and our games got down to the last turn. But once he saw the exploit of mech, mech, mech for the Allies I haven't been able to hold him.

So that is where I think the flaw is. It took many games with him to realize this only fully realizing it this last one.

Friday is my WPE-WPP day where I make changes.

[sveint]

A minor suggestion from me: Partisans are toothless at the moment. I'd suggest partisans can reduce MAX supply levels in Russia, so with light activity max may be 8 or 9, medium 7 or 6, and so on.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: sveint

A minor suggestion from me: Partisans are toothless at the moment. I'd suggest partisans can reduce MAX supply levels in Russia, so with light activity max may be 8 or 9, medium 7 or 6, and so on.

It is true that being able to have level 9 supply level for the axis in the deep of soviet union once the railroad is repaired is quite unrealistic. Max supply level could be capped the more you go east, or something like that.

[AlvaroSousa]

Not going to mess with supply. It is already a complex system.

[Harrybanana]

Of all the ideas suggested I think the best, in order, are:

1. Reduce rail repair in Russia to 2 hexes per turn. This will slow down not only the Axis in 41/42, but also the Russians in 43 to 45.

2. Increase the tactical strength of all air units by +1 at 39 tech level and also add an additional +1 in either 42 or 43.

3. Reduce the cost of Air Units by 10%.

4. Increase the cost of Armour and Mech by 10%.

5. Increase Axis and Russian oil consumption to equal the Western Allies. At the moment my understanding is that British and American Armour and Mech units consume more oil than Axis and Russian Armour and Mech.

6. Reduce German Oil production by 10%.

7. Reduce the OPs of Armour and Mechanized by 1.

[aoffen]

Or….
7b) don’t kill the ZOC’s of displaced or destroyed units (slowing movement thru break thru zones)

[MagicMissile]

I think this looks like a good place to start. All these proposed changes must be easy to do programming wise which is a plus.

/MM

[YueJin]

I'm not a fan of reducing the operations points of Armour/mech units. Encirclements are already very difficult to pull off against a competent player and reducing mobility makes the game even more likely to turn into a grinding battle of attrition. I like making air slightly more valuable and trying to make the Axis care about oil a bit.

[MagicMissile]

I dont think the idea might be bad but I think I would start with the first 6 and hold off with number 7 and see how that plays out.

/MM

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Or….
7b) don’t kill the ZOC’s of displaced or destroyed units (slowing movement thru break thru zones)

True, but this would affect the Axis in France too much. France would not fall until late August or September. I think this would work great if the map was increased in size by 25% to50%. Having a limit of 3 divisions (ie a Large Corps) in a hex where historically 6 divisions or more were employed is a bit much. But something like this will have to wait for Warplan 2.

[battlevonwar]

Skill was always the deciding factor for me despite the patches. Though the new patches are pretty huge since 7 months ago.

I wiped out a player from here 3 times in a row as Axis. Another player wiped my Axis out 2 times in a row ... then it was a close fought game! At that patch we agreed the Allies in the right hands just survive and Smash the Axis with #s in '44-'45.

I think key differences come in how well you exploit things. Like one player was exploited the interception rules, The amphibious Invasion Rules... Also the Neutral Convoys. The tiny things early in the game add up big later. People don't realize the mistakes they make. I see so many I've made later come back to cost me.

As I primarily play Axis but have played Allies it is a tough game to balance. Nobody wants to play with the same result over and over. There will always be gripes when 1 side finds advantages.

Russia does need to survive as is it requires a great Allied Player to make that happen. I think a player not as skilled can win as Axis. The Allies are overall much more complex and require more strategic and tactical knowledge. At least to get to 1942-43 alive!

[generalfdog]

I think air power should be a little stronger i think the new patch is a good start especially with strategic bombing, but tactical air should be a little more effective as well, Germanys early success was in large part due to superior air power, also their downfall once control of the air was lost Germany was no longer effective offensively.

[generalfdog]

I think Russian and US production is to low as well by late 42 they should be far greater than Germanys

[generalfdog]

don't know if it would be a good idea or not but what if Axis were reduced to some sort port supply like system in Russia where they had big supply hubs in say Rumania Poland and East Prussia and the further they went from them the less units could be effectively supplied and bad weather would make it worse, much like the problems Japan has in WPP when they venture to far into China Russia or India. Considering the different rail gauge in Russia Germanys lack of motor transport, Russia's poor roads and Germanys inability to adequality supply their armies deep in Russia it would probably be easiest way to hamper Axis on eastern front, giving Russia a home turf advantage without giving Russia to much of a late game advantage because as Germany gets pushed back they wouldn't have the Issues anymore

[AlvaroSousa]

A couple adds to the next patch that should balance it out more. Armor is really the killer unbalancer in the game. But changing it will unbalance it more.

So now air interdiction of movement has been increased and shown on your turn on the enemy. It was 20-30% now it will be 35-50% depending on the status of a full air unit.

Swapping units keeps entrenchment now.

rail repair rate 3 -> 2 again. This should impact going into Russia and coming out.

I also increased manpower production for Germany +2. I noticed they quickly and completely run out by 1944 as they get smashed but have plenty of production. The manpower increase should net 260 mp = ~9 infantry corps for defense. But it still impacts the quality of the troops.

As for Russian production......
It is correct. The Russians lost a tremendous amount of men and equipment that is incredibly hard to write into the game. As is all the games I played the losses for the Germans and Russians were very close upto 1943. Realistically they should be at least 2:1.

So take the battle of Kursk. They lost so many more tanks than Germany. So in the game the production is abstracted for this consideration.

[AlvaroSousa]

There will also be a Small Fleet scenario in the new patch. But both players need to have the same new patch installed for it to work. It will not kill older games.

[generalfdog]

So just curious while those seem like good improvements, except for the rail repair rate which will initially hurt Germany I don't see how this will help initial Russian fortunes which seems to be most peoples complaint

[AlvaroSousa]

Reduced rail repair means armor won't recover as fast running around like energetic children. It does make a difference. Before the rail repair rate was 2 but the Germans were too weak and couldn't get to historical lines.

And it also helps the Axis late game slowing down the Allies so they don't do the same thing. With the air unit positive balancing effect and the rail repair rate I think it should work.