Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low?

[RedJohn]

Apologies for reviving the thread, and I understand the previous arguments - but I just have to confirm:

Are results like this intended, then? I was attacking across the Dnepr against a Romanian ID. The result was a 95% rout, more than a lot of Soviet units.

This particular example would probably be an edge case somewhat, but the general trend of "Romanians routing and losing 50% of their men" is consistent.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: RedJohn

54000 final CV to 0. Well, I don't see any issue with Soviet troops being 54,000 times better than Romanian troops... considering that I am playing the Soviets. [:D]

[panzer51]

In 1941 the Romanians were better equipped than the Soviets, so such attack across a major river should result in easy hold for the Romanians. The problem is artillery, rather its ammo. In 1941 Soviets had a huge problem with ammo supply which rendered all their arty useless.

[AlbertN]

Clearly Romanians dispersed after shooting a few shots and got slain while fleeing and routing en mass!

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.

[panzer51]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.

Wonder, why real Germans couldn't figure that?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: panzer51

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.

Wonder, why real Germans couldn't figure that?

/shrug You still need some Germans though in Soviet Garrison but the current state of the Rumanians I would send to Soviet Garrison and work on getting about 5ish Rumanians up in Morale in the process that will stay on the map.

[Dreamslayer]

Romanians actively was used to cover coastal line on Azov and Black Seas.
e.g. status on 6 Dec 1941

[RedJohn]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.

Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond.

[GibsonPete]

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: RedJohn

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.

Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond.

You are absolutely correct. I will rephrase what I wrote to be up front and to the point. "THEY SUX" and will take horrendous losses use them somewhere else. Hope this clears it up.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more.

I'm sorry but that is the hand that has been dealt. We either deal with it in the best way possible (my option at the moment), or we keep reviving this thread only to revert back to Mr Joel Billings post of him not changing Romanian Morale at all in post #37. It is as simple that and he said, "Topic is resolved and closed". That seems final to me. Sorry, I too believe they are weak as heck but final is final.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more.

I'm sorry but that is the hand that has been dealt. We either deal with it in the best way possible (my option at the moment), or we keep reviving this thread only to revert back to Mr Joel Billings post of him not changing Romanian Morale at all in post #37. It is as simple that and he said, "Topic is resolved and closed". That seems final to me. Sorry, I too believe they are weak as heck but final is final.

This was not directed to anyone just saying.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

If the history buffs can prove the Rumanians were better than what we are seeing with Historical references then I am sure they (Mr Billings & Dev Team) will revisit the settings for the Rumanians. Without that we have to play the cards we have in our hands with this despised light blue counters on the map.

[Hardradi]

Attacking without surprise these are the initial results for the Rumanians in Barbarossa. "The 1940 frontier was reached the following day, 26 July, which is considered the official end of operations for the Northern Bukovina and Bessarabian campaign in 1941. The Romanian troops suffered heavy losses during these fights: 22,765 men (4,271 killed, 12,326 wounded and 6,168 missing) and 58 aircraft. The Soviet losses were 17,893 (8,519 dead and missing and 9,374 wounded)."

https://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=5

Based on the article they appeared to suffer many Soviet counterattacks. Most were held.

They got absolutely hammered here: "The battle of Falciu – Tiganca was over. The losses suffered by the two divisions were gruesome: 2,473 by the Guard Division and 6,222 by the 21st Infantry Division."

[RedJohn]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

If the history buffs can prove the Rumanians were better than what we are seeing with Historical references then I am sure they (Mr Billings & Dev Team) will revisit the settings for the Rumanians. Without that we have to play the cards we have in our hands with this despised light blue counters on the map.

He did indeed say the topic was closed - but I was hoping to get confirmation that they're happy and/or okay with the results of the battle I posted.

If they are, fair enough.

[Nix77]

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?

My own subjective perception is that these seem to have been increasing in frequency recently. However, the increase was not just with the latest patch. I don't think I saw that sort of result with the OG 1.00 version when the game was released, but I do remember seeing this sort of result more often in the more recent patches like 1.09, even before the 1.15 beta.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?

I *think* this patch has increased lethality of combat. If so its feasible for a badly beaten defender to end up no undisrupted elements that contribute to the cv.

if so (note the chain of I think/if/if) then its attacker cv/0, hence the odd ratio.

I've seen this quite often before if you give the axis AI 120+ and that triggers the 'tac nuke' routine, that tends to generate a lot of disruptions on top of the combat (if the Soviets lose) which is why I suspect the new tank combat system has triggered other changes?

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?

I *think* this patch has increased lethality of combat. If so its feasible for a badly beaten defender to end up no undisrupted elements that contribute to the cv.

if so (note the chain of I think/if/if) then its attacker cv/0, hence the odd ratio.

I've seen this quite often before if you give the axis AI 120+ and that triggers the 'tac nuke' routine, that tends to generate a lot of disruptions on top of the combat (if the Soviets lose) which is why I suspect the new tank combat system has triggered other changes?

I've seen lots of these results in regular AIvsAI (difficulty 100/100) games. I'm not sure but I would guess these crushing odds and battles that completely devastate AFVs in single battle might be related.

I'm also seeing battles with regular retreat results, very light losses in manpower and guns, but huge AFV losses. Below is a otherwise rather uneventful where the Soviets somehow manage to lose 200 M1942/3 T-34, all of their SU-152, and the Germans take a fair share of damage too.

It almost seems like the battles are being fought too much on long range encounters?