Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

ORIGINAL: MSAG

Hi,
I am the reason of the Albert's post. In our game he is trashing me mightily (we are at T9).

Most soviet player air war strategies that I observed are: (1) stop using air force (perhaps with exception of some naval/air transport) or (2) use GS or interdict GA (taking massive losses). In my humble opinion both strategies do not bring material benefits at all or do it at prohibitive losses cost.

I was looking for alternatives -(after short trial we agreed with Albert not to use GA(unit) for now) I tried railway / railyard bombing day/night and day interdiction and airfield bombing as well. I also played with fighter fight settings (mainly by trying to make the fighters use the optimal altitude for their fights). I lost 2000+ LBs already paying for the lessons learned.

My night attacks were aimed at railyards. Frankly due to FOW I am not sure about the results. Most reports I was getting were showing manpower hits. Railyard hits were reported in maybe 25% of the cases. Aircraft losses vary. Typically 10-20% of planes. Flak moves it up. When Albert's fighters scrambled and intercepted the losses were close to 100%.

I think that if the effects are as erratic as reports suggest than no HR is necessary.

However, I would hate to adversely affect the playability for my opponent so I am open to accept any limitations he may deem needed.

BR
MSAG

From my experience & my two AAR's showing railroad bombing in them my vote would be "NO" HR for railyard bombing. I am sure many others on the forum can chime in with their experience too.
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MSAG
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by MSAG »

Reading the whole conversation I would like to make one comment please.

In my opinion WITE2 is the most complex, amazingly rich and detailed WW2 strategic simulation ever created. It does great job in recreating the challenges, constraints and strategic decision dilemmas of both sides.

Full recreation of history is rather difficult to achieve in the game - humans use hindsight (German players practice 22 June opening and get ready for the harsh winter while Soviet players KNOW Germans cannot be stopped in the summer '41 and play accordingly).

The players also experiment with the simulation at times - to check what works and what does not (that is one the advantages of the system imho).

In some rare cases historically controversial results are achieved. That happens. In some cases these are bugs, in some the system works as designed while certain outcomes were not fully understood. Bugs will be fixed and the system can be finetuned.

In both cases the GG games have great history of designer follow up, patching and development.


This game is emphatically NOT broken. And I do not believe it is biased (although it poses different sets of challenges to soviet and axis players).


In short - it is a great game. And it is fun to play. Especially against human opponent.

BR
MSAG

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

ORIGINAL: MSAG

Reading the whole conversation I would like to make one comment please.

In my opinion WITE2 is the most complex, amazingly rich and detailed WW2 strategic simulation ever created. It does great job in recreating the challenges, constraints and strategic decision dilemmas of both sides.

Full recreation of history is rather difficult to achieve in the game - humans use hindsight (German players practice 22 June opening and get ready for the harsh winter while Soviet players KNOW Germans cannot be stopped in the summer '41 and play accordingly).

The players also experiment with the simulation at times - to check what works and what does not (that is one the advantages of the system imho).

In some rare cases historically controversial results are achieved. That happens. In some cases these are bugs, in some the system works as designed while certain outcomes were not fully understood. Bugs will be fixed and the system can be finetuned.

In both cases the GG games have great history of designer follow up, patching and development.


This game is emphatically NOT broken. And I do not believe it is biased (although it poses different sets of challenges to soviet and axis players).


In short - it is a great game. And it is fun to play. Especially against human opponent.

BR
MSAG


You will not get an argument from me on this post at all. I will re-paste here what I wrote in another thread just a few minutes ago. Here is that post repasted;
Hardluckyetagain

The people that are posting still are the ones that LOVE the game. Of those people you have two groups, The Soviet Side & the German Side. These are the people that love the game so dearly that post threads will be brought to the forfront in hopes of making this game even better with these posts. See that is the Crux. Some believe these posts are trying to destroy the game into something else when in reality, if we just stop to listen and understand these players, it is the LOVE of this game that makes us want to contribute.
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GibsonPete
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by GibsonPete »

"As to this, well first its utterly ahistorical that the LW would have pulled night fighters from city defense in the West. Really that's it."
Loki100
Absolutely true. I agree 100% but if this is a serious issue and you have one or more counters please share.
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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GibsonPete
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by GibsonPete »

Has anyone tried to assign additional Flak to the targeted airfields?
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by GibsonPete »

"However, I would hate to adversely affect the playability for my opponent so I am open to accept any limitations he may deem needed."
-MSAG

I believe that would be a mistake. Part of beauty of this game is finding a different solution to disrupt your opponent's plan (Human or AI). You did that. I believe your opponent your will come up with a counter move and you will be forced to rethink your strategy.
“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by AlbertN »

MSAG agreed on the not using bombers for Ground Attack (Unit) and that's fine.

I am not going to impede him from night bombing other stuff - except maybe Airfields if what HYLA pointed above is true and German LW simply gets obliterated on the ground by night. (Or if it flies it crashes its own planes)

I definitely do add extra Flak to the relevant zones (For instance when Smolensk got surrounded I put roughly 200ish AA guns across Hqs and Divisions around it waiting for the Air Supply missions.)

In 1941 British bombing was hardly precise or so. I see no reason anyhow for which NJ squadrons cannot be moved in Russia, if the player wants, even in 1944 at this stage.
If the Soviets perform night bombings en mass - the game should allow the Axis to either:

a) Bring in Night Fighters from the West.
b) Create new NF squadrons to send to the East.

@ Loki: I can totally see (not) the situation where "We are marching to Moscow but the Soviets are destroying our supply trains overnight. We need to secure our logistics to get to Moscow" (or any other relevant target) and obviously it falls to deaf ears in Berlin.
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Joch1955
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by Joch1955 »

I will have to recheck my books, but as far as I recall, Russians in 1941 did not have the training or equipment to carry out night bombing by level bombers, certainly not massive raids of 250 day bombers. They should have a low probability of finding the target at all and large operational losses from ACs getting lost and running out of gas, running into each other or crashing when taking off and landing.

Black Cross, Red Star, vol 1 discusses the few night raids the Soviets carried out and as I recall, they were called off due to poor results and high losses.
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by Dreamslayer »

Here is an article by Mikhail Timin about actions of Soviet Long Range Bomber Aviation during first nights of the war - https://warspot.ru/2573-nesostoyavshees ... -aviatsiya (in Russian)
There are various info (like reports, orders, bomb loadouts etc.). Soviet VVS was able to provide night bombing at start of the war but they was very limited by number of trained crews for it, lack of intelligence information and mostly was used for missions of other kind.
If somebody fluent in Russian or has a patience to translate it somehow (by Google at least) I suggest to read it.
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by Joel Billings »

Looking at the results of your test, they aren't far off from what we'd like to see (especially given this is bombing of a size 1 airfield that is full - it matters how many a/c are on the base and what kind of base it is). The interesting thing is how the flak losses decline as the missions go on. Thus less attacking a/c destroyed with each mission, but more importantly a much higher number of a/c on the ground are lost. If you looked at just the first two missions I'd say this was a Soviet defeat. Can you get these results fairly consistently when you rerun? If you add missions on the other days, does it continue the trend? Gary and I are wondering if our routines that can rearm the airfield with ammo may not be sufficient. Given this is a turn 1 test and the airfield is likely very near depots, it should be able to get more ammo. If you've got your save and can run more tests, it would be useful. If you get this consistent reduction in flak losses with each mission, please attach the save.

Although based on this test alone, we're not convinced that night bombing is ultimately a winning tactic (certainly doesn't seem decisive), but we're willing to make tweaks if it appears the results are too good. The player that reported losing 2000 a/c trying offensive missions seems to be arguing against it being an impactful strategy. Gary says his understanding was that the Soviets also tried some early night bombing and didn't do well and gave up on it for some time. He said in 1943 the Soviets did some major night bombing of the railyards/depot at Orel and that for this reason the Germans shifted some night fighters east, but that was the only time they did that (I see them in the reinforcement schedule). I think there was a reason we locked the units in the west, but I don't remember why we did that. I doubt it would be a big deal if we unlocked a few of the units since there is a cost to transferring them east and I don't see how they could be abused.
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by AlbertN »

For what concerns the 2000+ airplanes lost, MSAG tried a lot of railyard bombing, at various depth in the Axis line - and the earlier ones were at daylight with subsequent butcherings on interceptions.
In our previous game (rebooted once the latest patch came out) MSAG even tried to bomb Brest-Litvosk railyard and Warsaw, on T3 or T4 I believe.

Presently I only see Night Missions, or in the last turn I saw the VVS pounded the Luftwaffe in the sky in a day fight (I consider a 1 Bf109 : 2.5 Mig3 ratio of losses favorable to the Soviets). Which is a first worrysome signal for me as more than 50% of the Bf109s flying got obliterated in an air combat. But that is another tale.
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Looking at the results of your test, they aren't far off from what we'd like to see (especially given this is bombing of a size 1 airfield that is full - it matters how many a/c are on the base and what kind of base it is). The interesting thing is how the flak losses decline as the missions go on. Thus less attacking a/c destroyed with each mission, but more importantly a much higher number of a/c on the ground are lost. If you looked at just the first two missions I'd say this was a Soviet defeat. Can you get these results fairly consistently when you rerun? If you add missions on the other days, does it continue the trend? Gary and I are wondering if our routines that can rearm the airfield with ammo may not be sufficient. Given this is a turn 1 test and the airfield is likely very near depots, it should be able to get more ammo. If you've got your save and can run more tests, it would be useful. If you get this consistent reduction in flak losses with each mission, please attach the save.

Although based on this test alone, we're not convinced that night bombing is ultimately a winning tactic (certainly doesn't seem decisive), but we're willing to make tweaks if it appears the results are too good. The player that reported losing 2000 a/c trying offensive missions seems to be arguing against it being an impactful strategy. Gary says his understanding was that the Soviets also tried some early night bombing and didn't do well and gave up on it for some time. He said in 1943 the Soviets did some major night bombing of the railyards/depot at Orel and that for this reason the Germans shifted some night fighters east, but that was the only time they did that (I see them in the reinforcement schedule). I think there was a reason we locked the units in the west, but I don't remember why we did that. I doubt it would be a big deal if we unlocked a few of the units since there is a cost to transferring them east and I don't see how they could be abused.

Thank you Sir as always. Night bombing German fighter bases may or may not be a winning strategy but from my games and the losses I have seen the Soviets take GA bombing & interdicting my Germans in the game I personally would have used the bombers on the night bombing fighter bases which is more of a German crux. I know I could in a year game time as a Soviet player in the game I personally could make night bombing German Airfields work and wreck the German Fighter arm. But that is just me.

I do have the saves but I hastily made a directive to try it out to see what I got. I ran the one bombing run again and this time I got;

12 Fighters & 9 Recon (Pictures attached)

I could sink some time into this if you like if you give me some scenario parameters you would like to see or a different scenario start point. More than happy to test this out and send you the saves from those parameters since I can spend more time into the directives instead of AD Hoc single directive I have now from all over the place and is "not" optimized. Just let me know if you like me to sink some time in it for you or you just want this AD Hoc directive I made.

Here are the pictures 1 of 3 (This is the 2nd running of same file save)


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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

Picture 2 of 3



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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

picture 3 of 3

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

Ran again for third time

14 German Fighters
10 Recon

picture 1 of 3



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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

3rd run

Picture 2 of 3



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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

3rd run

Picture 3 of 3



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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

I will run one more time.
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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

Run 4 of the bombing

19 Fighters
10 Recon

Picture 1 of 3

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RE: Axis Night Fighter & TB Management

Post by DeletedUser1769703214 »

Run 4 of bombing

Picture 2 of 3

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