WPP Beta 5 - DEI Disbanding Units

[kennonlightfoot]

This may be intentional but if not is there a way to prevent it?

Right now all those extra garrison units the DEI has for NEI and Borneo can be disbanded and use to build up the unit garrisoning Batavia to full strength. Under current system the Japanese usually can't get enough attack factors to kill the unit in Bandar Lampang. It usually retreats to the minefield hex to the SE. From there it can usually be moved to combine with the unit in Batavia making it a Corps size unit (20) but not full strength (15/20). Because Batavia is always in supply the Allies can disband all the useless garrisons in Borneo and NEI to bring it up to full strength.

If it is intentional, it is working just fine.

[ncc1701e]

I don't know if this is intentional. But, this is indeed stressing a little the Japanese player. Thus my advice, take all the oil fields in Borneo as soon as possible.

[*Lava*]

And if you get unlucky 2 garrisons can combine making an almost impregnable small corps.



One of the reasons I haven't so far tried PvP.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I don't know if this is intentional. But, this is indeed stressing a little the Japanese player. Thus my advice, take all the oil fields in Borneo as soon as possible.

You need the 30 oil at Palembang or you are screwed. Having Batavia in your rear area... [:-]

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: *Lava*

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I don't know if this is intentional. But, this is indeed stressing a little the Japanese player. Thus my advice, take all the oil fields in Borneo as soon as possible.

You need the 30 oil at Palembang or you are screwed. Having Batavia in your rear area... [:-]

You do what you want. Go all in to Palembang and Batavia if you want. I am just saying that, if you want to secure and do not run out of oil, you have 25 oil points. 4 + 7 + 2 + 5 + 7 = 25 oil points in Borneo.

But, that's entirely your choice.

[YueJin]

The DEI still isn't that tough a prospect for the Japanese as long as the marine division takes Bandar Lampung on turn 1. You can land the paratrooper corps and one of the good divisions in Vietnam turn 2 to secure Palembang by turn 3 and Batavia by February even with rain. The only unit the Dutch can disband is the one at Cape Carot and then you get Palembang for free so I don't see a problem there.

Turn 1 invasions




Turn 2-3 takes Palembang and sets up to close out Batavia





Batavia falls turn 5 despite 3 turns of rain

[kennonlightfoot]

The only unit the Dutch can disband is the one at Cape Carot and then you get Palembang for free so I don't see a problem there.

That is incorrect. There are two units in Dutch Borneo that can be disbanded. Also, the two units on the Surabaya end of the island can be disbanded. This yields more than enough points to bring the Corps in Batavia up to 20 point strength.

So far I have not had a test of this fail. The division in Bandar always has retreated to the mine hex and I have been able on the first move of the game to combine it with the Batavia force to make a Corps. All the other DEI units except the one in Pontianak and the out of supply one in far west end of island have been able to disband to provide PP and men to rebuild the Batavia force.

But the question is "Is this intended or an exploit?"

It is a bit gamey because the Dutch didn't have the capacity or the control of the seas to move that many men from Borneo to Batavia. It is something the game allows because it moves them by magic.[:D]

[YueJin]

The Java ones by Surabaya can't be disbanded if you invade like I did in my first screenshot as they're out of supply. I didn't disband the Borneo ones but I can't see how 5 more strength on the Batavia garrison does anything except maybe delay the fall of the city by one more turn if the Allied player is very lucky with weather and dice rolls. It is a bit exploity but there's no way to change it short of removing the units entirely.

[*Lava*]

Having the garrison at 20/20 and 100% effectiveness makes Batavia very difficult to take. You really only get one chance to do it, so you need to pile as much supply into your units as possible, including trucks. That is how I do it... to be sure.

In this video I explain how a player can make taking Batavia, Netherlands East Indies very difficult to take in a PvP match. Representing over 25 tests, I was only able to take this important Main Supply port 4 times. Thanks to all the supply I put in my units, it falls in this explanation of the situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEnWFLAMwv4

[YueJin]

I mean if you're really struggling just drop one of the two armies that start in Japan off there. I did notice from the video that you really underutilize naval bombardment. In the very first turn try putting 4 ship groups to support the marines at Bandar Lampung, you get 6:1 odds instead of a very risky 2:1 that might not even move the defenders. A couple of battleships offshore at Batavia also give you 3:1 odds or better even against a 20 strength small corps.

[kennonlightfoot]

I tried to reproduce YueJin method of taking the DEI to show the problems with disbanding I referred too.

On Turn 1 the weather is clear so there is little restriction of movement. I show the final Japanese positions at the beginning of the Allied Turn on 1st turn. From the description he indicates that he is going to move the Japanese Airborne unit to Bandar Lampung to be part of the force that will take Batavia. The Japanese only have 20 unused transport points on Turn 1. If the AB is to get to Bandar on turn 2 it will have to use those transport up. This leaves the Japanese with no ability to use units for invasion other than those already at sea. So they have no extra units to invade Borneo with to capture oil or keep those units from disbanding. However, this can be corrected by using the Army near the Philippines which is already at sea.

Under his invasion plan it still take the use of three landings instead of two. This will keep the garrison at Surabaya from being used but it still leave the potential of using the three units I circled in red in Borneo to disband and provide production points and manpower to rebuild the Batavia force. The garrison in Bandar usually retreats to the mine field hex to the SE which puts it in easy moving distance of Batavia so it can join that force to make a corps size unit.

I didn't test to see if I could come up with some combination of landings on Borneo that would prevent those units from disbanding. I also didn't test to see if the Allies could undo all this by just having the UK send production points to the Dutch. To prevent all this though would take a very large commitment of forces to the DEI by the Japanese.

Then there is weather. When I ran the test I had to restart turns a number of times to avoid extreme results of Heavy Rain or Clear weather.

The landing NE of Bandar supported by a couple of BC's and CA's results in 6:1 odds. I actually failed to take Bandar on my first try and had to restart.

Second try it was driven out setting up the Allied situation shown below. The Bandar garrison moves to Batavia and joins that unit to form a Corps. By disbanding the units circled in red I can generate 51 total production points and 42 manpower in DEI Stockpiles. More than enough to build the Batavia Corps to full strength. Since the combined unit is 15/20 it probably only needs 5 Production and 5 Manpower but I haven't checked this. The rest can be used to replace loses if the Japanese attack fail.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: YueJin

I mean if you're really struggling just drop one of the two armies that start in Japan off there. I did notice from the video that you really underutilize naval bombardment. In the very first turn try putting 4 ship groups to support the marines at Bandar Lampung, you get 6:1 odds instead of a very risky 2:1 that might not even move the defenders. A couple of battleships offshore at Batavia also give you 3:1 odds or better even against a 20 strength small corps.

Ah, now that is great advice.

Cheers

[kennonlightfoot]

Taking of Batavia.

By using the disbanding of one or more units the DEI is able to bring the Batavia garrison up to 6-2 value. Which makes it pretty hard to kill with non-army size units. I show the situation in Turns 5 and 6 below. I wasn't able to attack on Turn 5 because rain reduced the odds to 1:2. That was with 4 BB, 2 BC, 2 CA and 2 DD supporting. Only on Turn 6 with clear weather to help was I able to get 2:1 odds. The resulting attack did take Batavia but just barely.

Actual results were:
1 2:1 resulting in 2 hits.
2 2:1 resulting in 2 hits.
3 2:1 resulting in 4 hits (got lucky).
4 3:1 resulting in 3 hits
5 4:1 resulting in surrender.
Somehow, I still had one unit with a movement point to take the city.

But even to get to this point it required a lot of replaying turns. The actual sequence was.
Turn 1 - had to replay because of failure to take Bandar Lampung.
Turn 2 - Heavy Rain - restarted turn - Clear this hurt the Allied to much so - restarted again for Rain.
Turn 3 - Clear - Japanese took Palembang easily but Batavia was already up to 6-2 and Japanese weren't in position to attack it.
Turn 4 - Heavy Rain - Japanese shutdown but at least able to get adjacent to Batavia with their intended attack force.
Turn 5 - Heavy Rain - decide to redo - Second try Rain but Japanese force is two weak to take Batavia.
Turn 6 - Clear - Batavia finally taken.

Conclusion

Japanese can't really afford to make the level of commitment needed to prevent the Batavia garrison from becoming a full strength Corps by disbanding units not engaged in NEI and Borneo.

Open question: Should the DEI be able to disband units to reinforce the Batavia garrison? And, can it be prevented within the current version of the game?

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: YueJin
In the very first turn try putting 4 ship groups to support the marines at Bandar Lampung, you get 6:1 odds instead of a very risky 2:1 that might not even move the defenders.

The only ships you can bring down to Bandar Lampung, that I can find, to support this landing use both Operational Points to make the journey.

Thus, it is impossible to attack on the first move.

What am I missing here?

[YueJin]

Move the marines to the hex first and invade with them. Then move one of the DD groups within 24 hexes to naval resupply them, then bring in 3 other groups from wherever to provide naval bombardment. Ships don't need op points to provide naval support.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: YueJin

Move the marines to the hex first and invade with them. Then move one of the DD groups within 24 hexes to naval resupply them, then bring in 3 other groups from wherever to provide naval bombardment. Ships don't need op points to provide naval support.

Okay, I did that.

Moved marines and invaded.
Brought down a DD which took 2 OP points to get there.
No resupply available.
Brought down the other 4 DDs
Odds went from 1:1 to 5:1

[YueJin]

Bring this destroyer in to perform the resupply, it's only around 4% efficiency but the attack is important enough to do everything possible.



6:1 attack after bringing in the supporting ships

[*Lava*]

Cool! [;)]

[kennonlightfoot]

The only ships you can bring down to Bandar Lampung, that I can find, to support this landing use both Operational Points to make the journey.

Thus, it is impossible to attack on the first move.

What am I missing here?

Ships can support the attack as shore bombardment without having any remaining Operating Points.
There are two BC's and two CA's in that range plus some destroyers.

However, ships can't resupply the land units unless they have one point left.
I usually use the coastal for that although 1 or 2 Destroyers may be needed.

You do have to watch what hex you use to resupply from since any ships entering afterword will be set to the same state and won't support.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Ships can support the attack as shore bombardment without having any remaining Operating Points.

I wasn't aware of that, cheers.

(Only in my first play through as the Japanese.)

And thanks everyone for all the tips, when it comes to PvP, it was the opening as the Axis, that I was most unsure of.