Taming the Tiger or Slaying the Bear......loki100 (Axis) vs Speedy (SU)

[Speedysteve]

OOB:

[Speedysteve]

If there's anything you want to specifically see/ask then go for it readers[:)]

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

If there's anything you want to specifically see/ask then go for it readers[:)]

well now you ask .... [;)]

T64: 6 September 1942

To put this in context, I maintained the pressure towards Tula till T62 when I abandoned it. In part due to the bug I uncovered in my vs AI game. The Axis player is meant to keep the net +6 for taking cities that never fell, in reality the Soviet player has limitless time to regain them. Now 6 VP are not going to make much of a difference but ...

In other ways the offensive was going well, that group of Soviet forces were falling apart but I was still mired in endless reserve reactions and having to work really hard to create 2-3 divisional pockets. I was also reaching the end of the clear terrain.

So decided that if the Soviets had to advance over the ground I'd trashed, I got 2 advantages. They had moved, therefore less MP to feed into reserve reactions and they would start to have some supply problems.

So this turn, lashed back with 2 long planned assaults. This is no longer about taking locations, its about culling the Red Army.

With some of my best infantry and 2 Pzr Armies, I gambled on this one, clearly there are a lot of Soviet units around but they are mostly the ones who have lost battles consistently for the last 8 weeks. Also each hex has a complete Pzr/Mot Corps. So we'll see



The other was here, recon established no local reserves, I'd been attacking with 11A along the Donets and that had captured their attention. Everything I hit SE of Stalino ended up routing, hence the depth of my pocket.

Having been over this phase (admittedly vs AI), I have some idea of the relative capacity of the two armies, especially if I am not at the limit of my supply net and spread out over all of Southern Russia.



VP situation is grim. Steven will get around 380 by default when the initiative changes. So he only needs say +230 to the HWM and has a decent chance at the 1943 auto win points. I don't see this lasting to Berlin, but 1943 promises to be pretty vicious.

Basically for the next 40 or so turns, clear terrain is my friend, then things reverse dramatically.

[tm1]

T64: 6 September 1942

To put this in context, I maintained the pressure towards Tula till T62 when I abandoned it. In part due to the bug I uncovered in my vs AI game. The Axis player is meant to keep the net +6 for taking cities that never fell, in reality the Soviet player has limitless time to regain them. Now 6 VP are not going to make much of a difference but ...


I was just reading this post and read about this bug in the points is this a fixable bug.

[loki100]

aye, there just needs to be a rule added that these additional captures can't generate a +6 time bonus for the Soviets when the initiative changes.

one reason for sticking with less than optimal games - we find out things. AFAIK, all the other axis vs Soviet AI games that went into 1943 were at 100/100 and ended up with the axis keeping the initiative. Clearly this particular problem won't occur in StB (pretty much by definition), so a 1941 GC that goes wrong enough to see the axis lose the initiative becomes very instructive.

The Finland/Helsinki problem might be harder as that is the only VP in a Theatre Box but that one needs a date for the armistice so that feasibly the axis player can cling to Finland long enough to remove the time bonus.

[tm1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

aye, there just needs to be a rule added that these additional captures can't generate a +6 time bonus for the Soviets when the initiative changes.

one reason for sticking with less than optimal games - we find out things. AFAIK, all the other axis vs Soviet AI games that went into 1943 were at 100/100 and ended up with the axis keeping the initiative. Clearly this particular problem won't occur in StB (pretty much by definition), so a 1941 GC that goes wrong enough to see the axis lose the initiative becomes very instructive.

The Finland/Helsinki problem might be harder as that is the only VP in a Theatre Box but that one needs a date for the armistice so that feasibly the axis player can cling to Finland long enough to remove the time bonus.

Plus 1 Thank you for the info

[loki100]

T68 – 4 October 1942

Next turn is heavy rains so this seems a good break point. I'm not going to do regular posts as I am now essentially reactive in my options.

Over the last few turns I've lost a few VP to the Theatre boxes so have dumped some of the less useful AA formations in the west to try and redeem that.

The front lines haven't really moved, some small Soviet probes around Orel-Kharkov that I am mostly letting them have.

Start with the VP chart. We are now past the stage when the initiative can change and the Soviets need to push me below 536.

Given they will readily gain the +6 time bonus the current front line cities of Orel, Kursk, Kharkov and Stalino (64) will do that.

When that happens, incl time bonus for cities I never took and they will have around 480 VP. So if they make any additional gains, say in the Dnepr bend then this could easily end at the start of 1943.



They have an on-map army of 6m but no real reserves.



But that is a bit misleading as its clearly by choice. They have just had the last scripted allocation, I'll start to gain the 'Stalingrad' bonus in early 1943 (despite of course not having the Stalingrad losses).



The VVS has largely hidden itself away. I personally think this is a mistake, the AI does a good job of imposing steady attrition.

I'm using the LW as I wish. In addition to the basic GS+recon have run a fair few railway interdiction missions and GA-unit when I had a particular target. Not sure about the interdiction bu the unit mission paid off if I really wanted a given formation to collapse.



Ground losses.



Last report I launched some local offensives. Both paid off, the attack in the centre I pulled back after destroying the pocket. Since the Soviets took a battering at Stalino I kept up the pressure for another 2 turns yielding a steady stream of destroyed units.




I've basically been using these turns to refit weakened formations. A steady stream of Pzr divisions have gone to the reserve to both dump obsolete tanks and refit.

Despite some claims to the contrary, by bringing them back one by one and using different NSS over time, they all arrive with 40+ MP and plenty of trucks.



So, don't think this is going to take long now, my only real hope is a serious stalling of the Soviet offensive till April 1943 but they can win by not taking much so no pressure to gamble.

Front lines and VP locations for the south and centre.

[Gam3r]

JubJub still holds Voronezh at this date.

It will be interesting to compare the results of Soviet 42-43 winter offensive.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've basically been using these turns to refit weakened formations. A steady stream of Pzr divisions have gone to the reserve to both dump obsolete tanks and refit.

Despite some claims to the contrary, by bringing them back one by one and using different NSS over time, they all arrive with 40+ MP and plenty of trucks.

You were able to, and that is certainly good, but it is clearly a common problem that new players keep running into.

You know all the little special tricks to do things, but the average new player is not going to know all of those, and can run into this sort of thing, get frustrated, and quit as a result. So it would be useful for new players if it were possible for it to be slightly more user friendly in this respect (this respect in particular because it is a recurring issue for seemingly a lot of new players). A new player may quite rationally think "I have 5-10 trashed Panzer divisions, let's refit them" and then assume that it should be possible to simply deploy them when they are sufficiently refit and rail them to the front (same as they do with infantry units).

Also, it doesn't particularly make logical/historical sense that you should have to bring divisions back one by one and have them sit in Berlin. At least as far as I am aware, Panzer divisions commonly went "into reserve" to refit, but when they did so they were not immediately stripped of all their trucks and then have to go sit in Berlin for a couple of weeks before they could get trucks and then begin fighting.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Last report I launched some local offensives. Both paid off, the attack in the centre I pulled back after destroying the pocket. Since the Soviets took a battering at Stalino I kept up the pressure for another 2 turns yielding a steady stream of destroyed units.

I for one would be interested in any details/screenshots of these local ones. Doesn't need to be for all such offensives you are doing or anything, but just a random example would be interesting to show what you are doing and how much capacity for small local counterattacks you really have, simply because there have not been many AARs of GCs going into 1942 yet.

Maybe this is what you mean with the Taganrog attack in the previous update, but that seems fairly large since it looks like it pocketed 9 divisions.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

JubJub still holds Voronezh at this date.

It will be interesting to compare the results of Soviet 42-43 winter offensive.

I don't think the game will last that long, if my opponent commits to a serious offensive all he needs is the 4 cities in the front line and 2 more of Smolensk, Dnepropetrovsk or Zaporezhye. Pity as it would be good to see this last but there we are

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've basically been using these turns to refit weakened formations. A steady stream of Pzr divisions have gone to the reserve to both dump obsolete tanks and refit.

Despite some claims to the contrary, by bringing them back one by one and using different NSS over time, they all arrive with 40+ MP and plenty of trucks.

You were able to, and that is certainly good, but it is clearly a common problem that new players keep running into.

You know all the little special tricks to do things, but the average new player is not going to know all of those, and can run into this sort of thing, get frustrated, and quit as a result. So it would be useful for new players if it were possible for it to be slightly more user friendly in this respect (this respect in particular because it is a recurring issue for seemingly a lot of new players). A new player may quite rationally think "I have 5-10 trashed Panzer divisions, let's refit them" and then assume that it should be possible to simply deploy them when they are sufficiently refit and rail them to the front (same as they do with infantry units).

Also, it doesn't particularly make logical/historical sense that you should have to bring divisions back one by one and have them sit in Berlin. At least as far as I am aware, Panzer divisions commonly went "into reserve" to refit, but when they did so they were not immediately stripped of all their trucks and then have to go sit in Berlin for a couple of weeks before they could get trucks and then begin fighting.

well the problem is there is a batch of posters who start shouting 'broken' or 'bias' at the first thing they don't like. So the comment really was that you can readily rotate Pzr divisions through the reserve.

There is a short report in the vs AI game thread where the poster says he sent the Pzrs off to the reserve/other TB in Nov 41 and replaced them with infantry from the Theatres. Now he acknowledges the problem this caused him so that when he wanted the Pzrs back the trucks were damaged.

I don't know why its set up as it is, but its manageable. I suspect its a bit like air units flipping to a single generic 'pilot' in the reserve, it probably saves a lot of usually pointless computation.

In my view, the way to do it is to bring back one at a time to a NSS (& shift that NSS around). Every now and then one comes out with low MP. I then leave it on the NSS for 2 turns, if that doesn't solve the problem, move it to a depot with a large truck stock - ideally not in use but it seems to work well enough as long as they are using the depot.

The other bit is you have to be sure its worth it. If your active pools are near empty no amount of refit is going to get the tanks into the units

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: loki100

Last report I launched some local offensives. Both paid off, the attack in the centre I pulled back after destroying the pocket. Since the Soviets took a battering at Stalino I kept up the pressure for another 2 turns yielding a steady stream of destroyed units.

I for one would be interested in any details/screenshots of these local ones. Doesn't need to be for all such offensives you are doing or anything, but just a random example would be interesting to show what you are doing and how much capacity for small local counterattacks you really have, simply because there have not been many AARs of GCs going into 1942 yet.

Maybe this is what you mean with the Taganrog attack in the previous update, but that seems fairly large since it looks like it pocketed 9 divisions.

I suppose the distinction was between 'is this attack designed to gain ground' vs 'this attack is designed to generate a pocket.

The northern pocket I simply collapsed and then pulled, this is the end of T65 there.



In the south, I realised the Soviets were very weak and were clearly trying to keep out of the way as they recreated a line. So T65 saw the grand total of one stack surrounded



and then I extended it on T66 to take out a sector (using the Donets as a screen)



That left 4 PzrA pretty exhausted and I didn't want to pull any of the others south.

I've nothing to lose (the VP discussion above), so gambling on these 1-3 hex pockets is a good use of my resources.

[Speedysteve]

Hi All,

Just to update a few things from the Soviet side.

As Roger mentioned October has seen a plethora of rain. Sitzkreig all round. I've used this time to train my men and pilots, upgrade my planes to more modern fighters, build Mech Corps, Artillery Divisions and form up Heavy Tk Rgt's.

To Rogers point on the VVS being stood down for the last 2 months. I felt I had no choice. The VVS served it's purpose in the early summer by assisting where it could on key battles and to attrite the enemy BUT I had literally ran out of all decent fighters and was down to I-Series models. With the extreme NM differences between the LW and VVS coupled with the lack of decent fighters I decided to stand them all down as the threat of defeat had passed and better to train my pilots and equip them with better planes for the upcoming offensive.

I can't post too much for now but here's the current OOB levels before any future Soviet offensive begins.

If anyone has any specific questions regarding the Soviet side post away and I'll answer [:)]

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve


form up Heavy Tk Rgt's.

These come in as Guards right?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

As long as you aren't over the 35% that is.

[Speedysteve]

They SHOULD come in as Guards BUT alas Stalin has informed me that Brandenburgers have stolen the Vodka rations allotted to the Tankers! As such they're not currently coming into action as Guards.

[carlkay58]

The Soviet tank regiments coming in as non-Guards is a known issue and on the bug list. It should be fixed in the next version or two.

[Speedysteve]

Indeed[:)] I was just trying to be humorous about it[;)]

[loki100]

well we are into November 1942 and the Soviets seem very unwilling to actually do anything ... in the meantime numerous German divisions prepare for their winter break in France