GC 1941: Beethoven (Soviet) vs jubjub (Axis)

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

One very lucky rifle division (more precisely, a bit over a thousand stragglers from one very lucky rifle division) was evacuated by air from a pocket. The division is now recuperating and re-organizing in safety. But within a week or two, they will be back at the front, fighting the Panzers. A handful of vehicles were destroyed, and a few ground elements damaged in the process, but all in all this will be one more counter on the map in future turns.

Yes, it is irritating when the Soviets air lift out divisions like this But if you can do it, why not. The Soviets are so good in everything they do. But I wanted to key on something that many players may be missing in what you said, "back at the front, fighting the Panzers". I am at the point where I won't use the Panzers in the role they are supposed to do instead regulating them to more of just cut off and defend surrounded Soviets. I now let my Motorized Divisions do what Panzers would normally do. Why? Because of tank losses both from battles and just moving and becoming damaged. Is it historical? Probably not but the game is forcing "thinking outside the box" to delimitate this massive attacks you will be doing to my German brethern Panzers Just thought I would throw that out there.

[DesertedFox]

Yes, it is irritating when the Soviets air lift out divisions like this But if you can do it, why not. The Soviets are so good in everything they do. But I wanted to key on something that many players may be missing in what you said, "back at the front, fighting the Panzers". I am at the point where I won't use the Panzers in the role they are supposed to do instead regulating them to more of just cut off and defend surrounded Soviets. I now let my Motorized Divisions do what Panzers would normally do. Why? Because of tank losses both from battles and just moving and becoming damaged. Is it historical? Probably not but the game is forcing "thinking outside the box" to delimitate this massive attacks you will be doing to my German brethern Panzers Just thought I would throw that out there.

The old combat system looks to have disadvantaged the German panzers. It will be interesting to see what the new system brings.

Historically at about Sept 10th, the total write-off of german tanks was 846 and in my current game on August 24th they have suffered 1,417.

Whilst we don't expect an exact replica of history as many factors from player skill to strategic decisions will impact that. However, that is quite a difference.

Hopefully, the new system will correct this.

http://www.globeatwar.com/article/state ... -fall-1941

[Beethoven1]

2 more infantry divisions have been airlifted to safety on turn 2, bringing the total so far to 3 infantry divisions rescued.

None of the three divisions had a particularly large number of men or equipment, but they did have cadres of small numbers of men with at least some basic experience who would serve as cadres to help teach the lessons of war to fresh new recruits. As such, this would enable additional divisions to be fielded earlier, rather than waiting 9 weeks or so for fully fresh divisions to form.

[GibsonPete]

Q: What are your air losses when you airlift Rifle Divisions to safety?

Q: Has the Axis intercepted any of these airlifts?

[Jango32]

None were intercepted and the total seems to be 2 lost air transports and 3 lost fighters as per the screens. No idea about damage percentages.

[Beethoven1]

Yeah, in total I lost 5 planes airlifting the 3 divisions, all of which were operational losses I think. You can see in the screenshots.

An interesting question is whether any of the men being airlifted can be killed in the process - I think they can, because you can see here I lost 11 men.



Airlifting the 2 divisions this turn also took very little of my transport capacity, because one of the divisions had like 11 men, the other had 36.

So the division that had 11 men, lost its 11 men while being airlifted, apparently, and arrived with 0 men left. This is what it looks like now (lol):



The division I airlifted on the first turn had 1000-2000 men or so (and btw now has been reinforced up to 9000 and is ready for combat - but not too ready, actually, since it has only 38 morale and 30 experience).

I would airlift divisions with higher strength also, but they require a lot more transport capacity which I don't have (or at least don't have in one place).

On turn 1 the airlift was in the north, this time both were in the south done by the Kiev transport planes.

It is a little bit weird, because I am airlifting "divisions," and those divisions are actually useful once they get some replacements. But I am not actually airlifting anything like a full divisions-worth of men and equipment.

[Beethoven1]

Josef Stalin, in his infinite wisdom, has relieved Dmitry Pavlov of command of the Western Front and has, in his place, put the greatest General in the Soviet Union, who is obviously none other than Kliment Voroshilov.



Under Stalin's orders, Voroshilov is massing his forces along the banks of the Dnieper, in preparation for a great counterstroke, slated to commence over the next week or two. The counterstroke will push back the Fascist invaders and re-take Minsk.

In fact, the opening stages of the offensive have already begun. The 148th Rifle Division has already re-taken Bobruisk. There were those who said that Bobruisk would not be retaken until Operation Bagration in 1944. Well, they were wrong. Josef Stalin and Kliment Voroshilov showed those doubters to be wrong. This moment will be remembered as the Great Bobruisk Offensive.

As such, the road to Minsk lies open. Today Bobruisk, tomorrow we link up with stragglers and partisans in Osipovichi and Starye Dorogt and liberate Berezino and Pukhovichi. The jubjubite offensive, impressive while it lasted, has reached its natural and inevitable end:

[loki100]

general question, since you are using the current beta, do you notice any changes to combat, such as more really bad routs or outright shatters?

maybe a bit early for this to show up but just going by what I've seen in late 42, seems that low experience formations are now very vulnerable to collapse

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

general question, since you are using the current beta, do you notice any changes to combat, such as more really bad routs or outright shatters?

maybe a bit early for this to show up but just going by what I've seen in late 42, seems that low experience formations are now very vulnerable to collapse

In a word, YES, both in this and the team game I am playing in.

I was going to post more about this in the AAR later, but was going to delay it a bit with having the AAR on a delay of a couple turns. But if it helps for something, I could PM details.

Also, I know that some other players who have gotten further in a game with the new patch have seen a lot of bad routs and shatters, definitely a lot more so than was the case in the previous patch.

[loki100]

happy to see it in context, but you might want to offer some data to Joel?

I noticed it with that attack I did near Stalino. All of a sudden a Soviet army just evaporated, not just into routs but I think I got 2 shatters (they weren't that weak) among routs with 70=80% losses.

Its come up in the context of a test game of StB that has got into 1945 and all of a sudden low TOE/exp German divisions are getting hammered so it does seem as if emphasising experience in combat is having a substantive change.

A guess is it may return the game to the state where pockets in 1941 are the icing on the cake and that sustained combat is a valid option but, as ever, there are so many variables that one can construct all sorts of narratives as to the implications and how it will affect overall balance

[Beethoven1]

Germany has shared some reconnaissance photographs of Soviet defenses. This is the turn 2 defense in the Smolensk area. Or at least it is the part of it that German recon can actually see.

-edit - pictures below in jubjub's post:

[jubjub]

Beethoven requested that I post this recon in the AAR. Not quite sure how I'm going to tackle this defense yet...

[jubjub]

Beethoven requested that I post this recon in the AAR. Not quite sure how I'm going to tackle this defense yet...

Also not sure how many of these units are real (not depleted).

[Beethoven1]

It will be interesting to see how in fact jubjub does opt to tackle it. I can see a couple options, with my own particular analysis of the pluses or minuses:

a) Don't try to get through it for now, but take the opportunity to isolate and then eliminate some more divisions - pluses are that it is always good to get rid of Soviet divisions. Minuses are that this will eat up some time when Germany is normally advancing rapidly, and they are not particularly good divisions yet.

b) Plow right through it in the more northern part where the Dnieper is a small river - pluses are that probably a lot of casualties can be inflicted, minuses are he is unlikely to actually get through the defenses due to so many layers of combat delay, and this will also fatigue the Panzers/motorized for future turns.

c) Plow right through it straight across the Dnieper - plus is that there is somewhat less depth there, minus is that the river crossing will still drain extra MP, so it should end up eating up the German MP either way (at least if I set up the defense well enough).

d) Rest for a turn for CPP and for the infantry to catch up more fully - pluses are that it will be easier to get through the defenses with infantry as well as just motorized divisions, minuses are that Axis turn 3 is fairly early to be resting, although probably most units could stand to gain some CPP, and also then my troops would be better rested and supplied for next turn as well.

e) Try to go around the defense to the north or the south - pluses are that he could advance, since naturally if there are so many troops here there will have to be at least somewhat fewer elsewhere. Minuses are that this is probably not particularly where jubjub really wants to go, and the terrain will limit how fast he can advance either to the north (heavy woods etc) or to the south (swamps). It is hard to really judge the viability of this also in the screenshot due to not seeing the recon to the north/south.



I had a similar sort of defense near Smolensk in a game against Bread. Bread opted to send part of his mobile troops to the north to try to go around it and also encircle a few troops in the meantime (I suppose that is what he was trying to do), and rested with others.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5045087

It will be interesting to see what jubjub will come up with against the Great Wall of Soviets.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Also not sure how many of these units are real (not depleted).

lol

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

It will be interesting to see how in fact jubjub does opt to tackle it. I can see a couple options, with my own particular analysis of the pluses or minuses:

a) Don't try to get through it for now, but take the opportunity to isolate and then eliminate some more divisions - pluses are that it is always good to get rid of Soviet divisions. Minuses are that this will eat up some time when Germany is normally advancing rapidly, and they are not particularly good divisions yet.

b) Plow right through it in the more northern part where the Dnieper is a small river - pluses are that probably a lot of casualties can be inflicted, minuses are he is unlikely to actually get through the defenses due to so many layers of combat delay, and this will also fatigue the Panzers/motorized for future turns.

c) Plow right through it straight across the Dnieper - plus is that there is somewhat less depth there, minus is that the river crossing will still drain extra MP, so it should end up eating up the German MP either way (at least if I set up the defense well enough).

d) Rest for a turn for CPP and for the infantry to catch up more fully - pluses are that it will be easier to get through the defenses with infantry as well as just motorized divisions, minuses are that Axis turn 3 is fairly early to be resting, although probably most units could stand to gain some CPP, and also then my troops would be better rested and supplied for next turn as well.

e) Try to go around the defense to the north or the south - pluses are that he could advance, since naturally if there are so many troops here there will have to be at least somewhat fewer elsewhere. Minuses are that this is probably not particularly where jubjub really wants to go, and the terrain will limit how fast he can advance either to the north (heavy woods etc) or to the south (swamps). It is hard to really judge the viability of this also in the screenshot due to not seeing the recon to the north/south.



I had a similar sort of defense near Smolensk in a game against Bread. Bread opted to send part of his mobile troops to the north to try to go around it and also encircle a few troops in the meantime (I suppose that is what he was trying to do), and rested with others.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5045087

It will be interesting to see what jubjub will come up with against the Great Wall of Soviets.

I'd probably just do a whole bunch of hasty attacks with the motorised and tank divisions, you don't even need that good of a CV ratio to win. Soviet rifle divisions in open plains is just free food for panzer divisions at little cost. Just have to hope that those soviet tanks have travelled far already so any reserve activation doesn't pop, but even if they do, germany will probably win still on the 2nd attack attempt. Honestly a bit impressed that the Soviet got so many counters there regardless of whether they are depleted or not lol.

[Beethoven1]

So which of the options did jubjub take (this is Soviet turn 3)? Well, it seems like none of them, and maybe all of them to an extent.



He attacked north of the big river, but seemingly halfheartedly rather than plowing through everything he could, and didn't continue across the small river. He also attacked directly over the big river further south, but didn't cross it. Maybe he was hoping that my second line behind the river was a bluff and the troops were depleted or something. If so, that was incorrect, and so I still had ZOC to make it cost a lot of movement to cross the river. He also went north towards Velikie Luki, and took Velikie Luki itself. But seemingly only a handful of divisions, probably a corps, went up that way. There may also have been a few divisions resting, I didn't try to count them up so far.

Was this the right move? Would jubjub have been better off doing something else? I don't know, you tell me. It isn't obvious, and the fact that it isn't obvious is one of the things that makes WITE2 a great game. Here is what jubjub thought about it:



And here's the south. Germany is ahead of historical schedule in the south across the entire southern part of the front, ranging from a week or two in the northern part of it to fully a month ahead near Odessa. Germany is almost always ahead of historical schedule in the south in WITE2 multiplayer games.



jubjub is happy with the amount of Soviets casualties so far (1.184 million):



As for me, I can't say I am happy. What Soviet player could ever be happy with the first few turns of Barbarossa? But I do think it is good that Germany is not yet over the Dnieper and that Smolensk and Pskov still stand, whereas in some games Germany is across the Dnieper, has taken Pskov, and perhaps also even taken Smolensk by this point. Is that delay worth the extra losses? Again, hard to say. You tell me. It's not obvious, I don't think. But still, I am glad that Germany is not already at Vyazma and the Luga line. That fact will hopefully give me more margin of safety/error later on.

[Beethoven1]

Light rain is forecast for next week over the north. Hopefully that will help things there a bit. And hopefully that rain front will keep moving to the south-east and then be raining over the rest of Russia on the following turn.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Beethoven requested that I post this recon in the AAR. Not quite sure how I'm going to tackle this defense yet...

The only saving grace to this defense is the major river. Without the Major river this defense would crumble.

Really wish for turn #'s in header or in the body of the post Give you a dollar.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

The only saving grace to this defense is the major river. Without the Major river this defense would crumble.

Really wish for turn #'s in header or in the body of the post Give you a dollar.

That is what Axis faced on Axis turn 3, I normally include the turn number, but didn't here since the real (non-censored) part of the AAR is going to be delayed a few turns.

As for it not working (or at least not as well) without the river, there is a reason why I am doing that defense there rather than in the middle of the open Steppe of Ukraine. The river makes it harder to encircle too many of the units. and limits how far/effectively the defense can just be plowed through.

But a lot of the delaying function is also just pure simple combat delay. Each point of combat delay costs 3 MP on motorized units, so if you have 5-deep defense, that should end up costing 15 MP to move through just from the combat delay alone even if every delay is just 1 delay-point. And even if all the terrain is clear and weather is good etc, it costs 3 MP to move into a hex, so that is another 15 MP. So base value is 30 MP taken up to get through 5 hexes, and in practice that will generally be higher due to additional terrain movement costs, plus movement taken to do all the actual attacks.