Jap pilots are surperhuman!

[mdiehl]

To All who complain about Jap pilot bias.

First, please go and read some history. In a lot of fighter battles in 42 the US planes got decimated by the Japs.

Actually that is mere repetition of an Axis fanboy myth. Not saying you're an Axis fanboy. Just saying that if you read much RECENT history, say last 15 years, you'd know that Japanese pilots did not decimate their counterparts. So there is no need to repeat this demonstrably, manifestly, factually incorrect myth. Instead, you should consider that the stats show an overall kill ratio of almost 2:1 favoring the Allies, and in fighter vs fighter engagements variation around a mean that strongly favored the USN (1.2:1 to 1.5:1) when fighting the IJN, and that weakly favored the IJN when fighting the USMC. It follows that "decimated" (granted, it's hardly a quantitative term) really does not remotely or correctly describe the historical effectiveness of the A6M+pilot qua F4F+pilot in air combat. A much more accurate, correct, and well informed word would be "parity." The reasons for this, any why the vaunted intensive training of Japanese pilots did not in fact, historically, give them any significant edge over USN and USMC pilots may be debated of course, but the facts are what they are.

That said, I just started learning UV, playing parts of the Coral Sea and Scenario 14 scenarios over the weekend. I had no trouble holding my own against the IJN or the 25th Air Flotilla. In the Coral Sea scenario, some of this may have been stupidity on the AI's part: Sho, Zui and Shoho shot some of their bolt raiding Port Moresby. As my CVs sallied from Lunga I had all the airgroups standing down for the first two days, so they went into the fight well-rested. When the dust settled, I lost slightly more F4Fs than the IJN lost Zekes, but the Val and Kate contingents were decimated. Yorktown took a bomb hit but shrugged it off. Shokaku left the scene badly scragged and burning. Zuikaku with a couple of bomb hits but operational. Shoho went to Davy Jones' locker, along with maybe a half dozen Japanese APs (taken out by B25s, and a coup de grace delivered on a burning-stopped AP from a B17 dropping eggs from 20K).

I have set my CAPs at 30% in my TFs and bases with radar, with F4Fs patrolling at 25K and 20K (two diff CVs), P40s at 25K and P39s at 10K and 5K. One of my P39 groups racked up seven kills pumping 37mm into Nells while the P40s mucked with A6Ms.

[mogami]

Hi actually decimated means "one out of ten" It is a terrible term to apply to heavy losses since it only means 10 percent. I think it might apply to US air groups more then Japanese. Japanese air groups were mangled, mauled, massacured, slaughtered, destroyed but not decimated. (In an aircombat with 20 ac per side 2 planes shot down would be decimated)

[Damien Thorn]

Hi actually decimated means "one out of ten" It is a terrible term to apply to heavy losses since it only means 10 percent.

I thought decimate meant to reduce to 1/10th of original size. Thus decimating an air group would mean killing 90% of it, not 10%. I think the word comes from ancient roman times and referred to their army units, which were based on units of ten.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Congrats. Hope you enjoy the game.

Have Fun...

Michael Wood
_______________________________________________________________

...That said, I just started learning UV, playing parts of the Coral Sea and Scenario 14 scenarios over the weekend. I had no trouble holding my own against the IJN or the 25th Air Flotilla...

[mogami]

I thought decimate meant to reduce to 1/10th of original size. Thus decimating an air group would mean killing 90% of it, not 10%. I think the word comes from ancient roman times and referred to their army units, which were based on units of ten.

Hi, the origin of the term is from a punishment to Roman Legions that failed in battle. A Centurian would walk down the lines of troops tapping every tenth man. These then would be beaten to death by their comrades. This would discourge legionaires from retreating or failing in attacks. Few good Roman commanders ever had to decimate their legions. One of the few cases where it was used I can think of was Marcus Licinius Crassus during the revolt of Spartacus.



Marcus Licinius Crassus (c. 112 BC-53 BC) was a powerful figure in Roman politics on account of his great wealth (he was nicknamed Dives, meaning "rich"). He acquired this wealth through traffic in slaves, the working of silver mines, and judicious purchases of lands and houses, especially those of proscribed citizens. Most famous was his acquisition of burning houses: when he received word that a house was on fire, he would arrive and purchase the (apparently lost) property for a modest sum, and then employ his army of 500 clients to put the fire out before much damage had been done.

The proscription of Cinna forced him to flee to Spain. After Cinna's death he passed into Africa, and then to Italy, where he ingratiated himself with Sulla.

Sent into battle against Spartacus, he gained a decisive victory, and was honored with a minor triumph. Soon afterwards he was elected consul with Pompey, and (70 BC) displayed his wealth by entertaining the populace at 10,000 tables, and distributing sufficient grain to last each family three months. In 65 he was censor, and in 60 he joined Pompey and Caesar in the coalition known as the First Triumvirate. In 55 he was again consul with Pompey, and a law was passed, assigning the provinces of the two Spains and Syria to the two consuls for five years.

Crassus received Syria as his province, which promised to be an inexhaustible source of wealth. However he also sought military glory, and crossed the Euphrates in an attempt to conquer Parthia only to be defeated at Carrhae in 53 BC (now called Harran, Turkey), and taken prisoner by Surenas, the Parthian general, who put him to death by pouring molten gold down his throat. His head was cut off and sent to Orodes II, the Parthian king.

[Hornblower]

"Now, only one thing about this game so far is unusual - there has been no CV to Cv action. The Vals and Kates were lost to flak attacking surface forces, but each time we might have had a CV fight, one of us (me or the AI has withdrawn a day early)." HMSWARSPITE...... Thats not unusual in my games. I play snr 17 or 19 as allies. I avoid the JAP CV's early in the game (First three months or so) I find the AI goes for Gili Gili and Lunga. Jap CV's as a group will follow one of the invasions. I go where they aint and hit the unguarded AP's. Then loop around and hit where they have been. Not a glorious way of doing things, but keeps the Lex and York around, and starts the attrition of the Jap AP's

[HMSWarspite]

"Now, only one thing about this game so far is unusual - there has been no CV to Cv action. The Vals and Kates were lost to flak attacking surface forces, but each time we might have had a CV fight, one of us (me or the AI has withdrawn a day early)." HMSWARSPITE...... Thats not unusual in my games. I play snr 17 or 19 as allies. I avoid the JAP CV's early in the game (First three months or so) I find the AI goes for Gili Gili and Lunga. Jap CV's as a group will follow one of the invasions. I go where they aint and hit the unguarded AP's. Then loop around and hit where they have been. Not a glorious way of doing things, but keeps the Lex and York around, and starts the attrition of the Jap AP's

Ah, but I've been chasing them. I now have 4 CV's, and have just missed the IJN twice in September - but I did get their bombardment of Lunga, and dented some BBs! However the AI seems to be avoiding me, keeps pulling out when I approach. I chased them half way to Truk a few days ago!

[UncleBuck]

I was lucky in my Game the other day. I caught teh Yamato and her escort Crusiers just off of Fischen(SP) I had a large number of Dauntlesses at Buna, 60, and 36 TBf's I had also 4 days earlier moved in 36 Dauntleses' and 24 TBF's to Lae . HEHEHE The Yamato and Hei (sp) did not make it back. THe Dauntleses did very little damage even with 1,000 lb bombs but they took the heat off the TBF's who in two attacks each from Lae and Buna scored 14 hits on the Yamato. I knew she was doomed when teh last attack occured and none of my planes took any damage from her AA guns.

I got lucky cause if she had gotten into my transports at Salmua I was done for.

UncleBuck

[Peter Weir]

I went and looked up decimate and sure enough its used to describe great desitruction in general by Webster's. Its root does come from the latin as others have said but many people use it everyday in the sense of of something terrible happening and thats considered right too.

Good story about Crassus, Mogami. Does anyone else think a war game about the old Roman empire would make for a good game?

[mogami]

Hi, Yes sadly it is true that if enough people misuse a word long enough it becomes accepted.

[Peter Weir]

Hi, Yes sadly it is true that if enough people misuse a word long enough it becomes accepted.

A laguage can become corupted if standards are too lax and we see it in this country too much-remember the ebonics push for example, but languages must grow and change in time like other parts of a culture or there would be no frowth at all. There has to be a reason english is used around the world for just aboutall purposes by people who probably would use there own languages just because it was easier but English is used for its flexibility instead. For example spanish is spoken all over the world but these people who speak it study nights to learn English toprogress in their jobs just for example. Ill take English over any other languge any day of the week-even tho I can't write it very well myself

[mogami]

Hi, If I had a nickel for every book or movie or TV show that used the word decimated when what they meant was "wiped out."
I'll accept it loosely for "sudden reduction of strength" but not for "wiped out, or heavy loss" Since it is only 10 percent. I think Varas would have preferred to have been decimated. I think Custer would have laughed at being decimated.
Another example that from 48 years of misuse has changed the original meaning of the word is Quantum.
In Latin this word means small or small parts. Because of the need for physicists to measure how much they were influencing the behavior of particles when they were trying to measure speed, size or location Quantum mechanics was invented. (you cannot measure both speed and location) This is measuring very small increments. Too small for normal mathematics. Well somehow the word became popular to describe a great leap So today we have Quantum Leap meaning a sudden great change forward. But a Roman would hear we had just made a leap forward so slight it can not be measured. So while I understand the new accepted meaning I still flinch when I hear that expression.

[Damien Thorn]

The one I hate is "Holocaust". It used to mean (still does) "Great destruction by fire". Today the word has been hijacked to mean the attempted genocide that the Nazis tried during the 40's. I hate when words get hijacked.

[pasternakski]

Eric Blair used to have a lot to say about the decadence of English. As far as stolen words are concerned, consider the following brief list:

gay
black
mentor
facilitate
partner
gender
issue
opt(ion)
empower

And so on. I particularly despise turning perfectly good concrete nouns into nebulous, sappy verbs.

[mdiehl]

Your world view is informed, or shall I say, misinformed, by the all pervasive thought-dominance of western male hegmonic scientism in its most disempowering and colonializing form, which in the theoretical praxis of queerist, transgendered, feminist, and darkist theory, facilitates your deverbalization of the radicalized evocation of dissent qua dissent, irregardless of your pretensification of the transaction of discourse through your imperialistic claim to such outdated intellectual phenomena (a phenomenology of which may be attributed to Foucault, whose all pervasiveness is made manifest through the absence of any need to formally cite Foucault in this context) as "standards" or "objectivity."

[pasternakski]

Quite the contrary, mdiehl, I view with alarm the iconoclastic tendency of isolationistic totalitarianism promulgated by benefactors solely bent on stifling the vital accord incumbent upon any vacillation of the vested interest.

Or, in the original Cartin, "Elantra camry, kia corolla accord. Lexus kompressor, prizm focus sonata prius, infiniti jetta alero civic. Rodeo stanza integra passat."

Isuzu?

[mogami]

Hi, There is no need to put that ir- in front of regardless. Irregardless makes no sense.

"irregardless of your pretensification of the"...........

"regardless of your pretensification of the "........ (Is better I think)

[pasternakski]

Well, irregardless of what you say, Mogami, I still think Jap pilots are surperhuman.

We all need an extra letter or syllable sometimes.

[mogami]

Hi, Well I know we are just playing around here so understand I'm not trying to teach English. Decimate is a word that has been missused long enough for the meaning to change. Irregardless is not even a word. (It's redunant) Ir means "not" Regardless means "without regard" So irregardless would mean "not without regard" This changes the meaning intended. (But it still is not even a recognized word)

[pasternakski]

Hi, Well I know we are just playing around here so understand I'm not trying to teach English. Decimate is a word that has been missused long enough for the meaning to change. Irregardless is not even a word. (It's redunant) Ir means "not" Regardless means "without regard" So irregardless would mean "not without regard" This changes the meaning intended. (But it still is not even a recognized word)

Fascinating. Irrespective of the above, would you be so good as to explicate "inflammable" for us?

Also, irregarding words that have been misused so long as to change meaning, could you exercise your powers of enlightenment on whatever remains of the difference between "envy" and "jealousy?"

My opinion is that UV does not misrepresent Japanese pilot ability within the context of the game system. I think, though, that the "mix" of factors that go into determining air combat effectiveness aircraft by aircraft has not been thought through thoroughly enough (okay, I can't stop having fun). When you try to construct a list of what you have to consider, it becomes rather bewildering.

You start with HQs. Presence or absence has an effect on numbers of aircraft. Then you go to leader characteristics. After that, you add in squadron ratings and status (morale, fatigue, et cetera). Base status (damage, supply, and the rest) factor in. Individual pilot experience is a prime determinant. Finally, you get down to aircraft characteristics. For strike aircraft, you have search effectiveness and status. For CAP, you have radar. Then, there's weather.

It goes on and on. I am sure I have forgotten to list any number of things here. The bottom line is that you can never evaluate your air units' performance more than just generally. Over time, you get a "feel" for it, but it's still more art than science.

For this reason, I consider discussions of pilot and airplane effectiveness and how well it is represented in UV to be largely immaterial.

You pays your money, and you takes your choice.