Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


Glad you are in with us.

If you like WW2 aircraft you are in for a real treat with WITP-AE.

I don’t know how much you know about the Pacific War but you
might want to pick up a few books as well.

This is my recommended reading list:
fb.asp?m=3863933
But…..take a look at the entire thread.

The two I think are the best starters for someone interested in WW2 aircraft are
Fire in the Sky and Shattered Sword. They are must have in my opinion.

Welcome.

Nice list! Thanks!

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ian R


WITPAE last official patch is, AIUI, the same as what was the v1.86a (Edit-beta numbering) patch. After that, MichaelM released the v1.86b (Edit - also the beta numbering) patch which fixed a couple of things. Once you apply that you have it "all". Meaning, officially all...

We will have to agree to disagree regarding the value of installing the last two betas.[;)]

The bugs introduced by the betas have a far more serious negative impact on game play than the positives from the fixes. The "fixes" address issues which only sometimes apply viz the at sea replenishment still works even without the fixes, it is just that without the "fixes" the Allied player has to be more careful how they do it, whereas the fix" allows an Allied player to be more lazy. The introduced bugs on the other hand simply cannot be avoided irrespective of how careful the player is. They structurally neuter an important gameplay design feature.

Alfred

First time I've heard of this. Interesting about sea replenishment. What other bugs were introduced?

Also looking at Big B mod I guess the Okha was never fixed?

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... WI0MDc1NDE

4) Identified and fixed the problem with the Ohka series flying bombs being unavailable
(problem inherited from stock).

It's a shame michaelm75au is not still around...

[Nomad]

If you use AndyMacs updated scenarios the Okha error has been fixed. It is a scenario data file error, not a program error.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

If you use AndyMacs updated scenarios the Okha error has been fixed. It is a scenario data file error, not a program error.

Thanks!!

[rustysi]

The introduced bugs on the other hand simply cannot be avoided irrespective of how careful the player is. They structurally neuter an important gameplay design feature.

Alfred

Could you please explain what are these bugs?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The introduced bugs on the other hand simply cannot be avoided irrespective of how careful the player is. They structurally neuter an important gameplay design feature.

Alfred

Could you please explain what are these bugs?

The biggest is the no naval support at SPS 0 port.

Flick through this thread as a refresher.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... =&#4867847

The AKE issue highlighted by GetAssist in separate threads is also significant and shows the repenishment bug quashing was not as successful as so many believe it to be. All up not surprising as these betas did not undergo the usual Henderson Field Design oversight.

Alfred

[MarkShot]

Hmm, is there ever to be another official patch?

"Official" doesn't always mean "quality". There was the Harpoon debacle here where many found the bug count to be growing as opposed to shrinking with each official update.

Then, there is Paradox which has made inserting bugs and selling the fixes with its DLC into a business model.

One of the biggest problem is losing people who really know the code, and using short term stand ins to fix what appear to be point problems, but actually are deeply interwoven into the entire design.

---

I found about 3 bugs in WITW's UI this week. I didn't even report them. I doubt they will be fixed, and as they were UI and not mechanics ... the player can live with them. It was clear that there was a failure to follow the coding convention that each module has a single entry and exit. It was the multiple entries that sometime results in some very weird screen configurations.

[Platoonist]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Hmm, is there ever to be another official patch?

At this late date 12 years after its release I think no. This game got a lot of post-release support for a very long time by a dedicated volunteer who squashed a lot of bugs, but I believe that's long over now.

[MarkShot]

It's a rare complex program such as this with zero defects.

It's was proven by Turing that it is impossible to mathematically show that code is bug free or ever halts.

---

One technique which we use to use to estimate how many unfound bugs remain in a system goes like this. You insert 10 defects of intermediate complexity into a system. You then turn over the build to the SQA Department for testing, based on the number of bugs they locate versus what you inserted and the history of the code, you can extrapolate how many bugs still exist in the code and have yet to be detected.

So, it is no surprise that I can find bugs in WITE-2, and they tell me ... 'oh, maybe it was introduced with the last beta'. Then, I go back and find the same bug in WITW. When I used to beta, we had a very diverse team. Some were military vets with plenty of procedural experience. Some were history nuts very well read in the details of battles, weapons, doctrine, and tactics. And finally, 25% were like me gamers with experience in software development.

---

Although not a pacifist; I am definitely not a war monger. What draws me to games like this is detailed modeling of the real world. I want games that act as closed systems which can be reasoned about and treated as real world experiences. You cannot do this with fantasy and sci-fi. But a war game about well documented conflicts can easily be tested against historical results and verified for the quality of modeling. GG is simply amazing. Most games, I call "programs". GG's works are really at the level of sophistication I would class them as "small scale systems".

[MarkShot]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


Glad you are in with us.

If you like WW2 aircraft you are in for a real treat with WITP-AE.

I don’t know how much you know about the Pacific War but you
might want to pick up a few books as well.

This is my recommended reading list:
fb.asp?m=3863933
But…..take a look at the entire thread.

The two I think are the best starters for someone interested in WW2 aircraft are
Fire in the Sky and Shattered Sword. They are must have in my opinion.

Welcome.

BTW,

Two excellent books I read while recovering from a heart attack was:

Wahoo

and

Clear the Bridge!

by Captain Dick O'Kane USN Retired.

[HansBolter]

MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.

Not any more he isn't.

[MarkShot]

Thanks, Hans.

I remember you from the Panther days. Dave is getting close on the current patch.

I am okay with WITW and WITE-2 2D UI. I play MIUS and CM to get down to ground level.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.

Like Hans, I have been hooked on this game engine since Uncommon Valor. It is a maddening game of crazy scale, but all other wargames pale in comparison. It is funny, but I used to think Uncommon Valor was overwhelming, yet it represented just a single theater.

[MarkShot]

I just finished watching the Dojo video where he talks about using the Kull spreadsheet for 12/8.

Yes, 5,000 seems like a lot ships to organize. The other games, the whole OOB & TOE are ready at the start for you.

But I will probably begin with smaller scenarios to learn the ropes.

[HansBolter]

Oh, everything is ready at the start.

Ready for you to organize it in any way you see fit.

One thing to be aware when playing Allies is that most of the at start cargo and troop transport shipping is scattered to the four winds. One very big task is getting it all headed to supply, fuel and troop distribution hubs.

While doing this, also be aware that many xAKs can be Converted into other extremely valuable ship types and they, and all reinforcement xAKs, should be examined for this purpose before they get tied up in transport task forces.

Lots and lots of relatively hidden nuances that steepens the learning curve. Like the fact that Allied ship production is basically hidden from the player, but is taking place IN the ports where ship reinforcements arrive on the West Coast. A lax defense of these can, and has, led to an enterprising Japanese player completely destroying 70% of the American CVE production for the entire war by taking the base which destroys the production.

Don't leave Portland defended by anything less than a full division.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Oh, everything is ready at the start.

Ready for you to organize it in any way you see fit.

One thing to be aware when playing Allies is that most of the at start cargo and troop transport shipping is scattered to the four winds. One very big task is getting it all headed to supply, fuel and troop distribution hubs.

While doing this, also be aware that many xAKs can be Converted into other extremely valuable ship types and they, and all reinforcement xAKs, should be examined for this purpose before they get tied up in transport task forces.

Lots and lots of relatively hidden nuances that steepens the learning curve. Like the fact that Allied ship production is basically hidden from the player, but is taking place IN the ports where ship reinforcements arrive on the West Coast. A lax defense of these can, and has, led to an enterprising Japanese player completely destroying 70% of the American CVE production for the entire war by taking the base which destroys the production.

Don't leave Portland defended by anything less than a full division.

Darn, you should have let him learn against a human player . . . [;)]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: rustysi

The introduced bugs on the other hand simply cannot be avoided irrespective of how careful the player is. They structurally neuter an important gameplay design feature.

Alfred

Could you please explain what are these bugs?

The biggest is the no naval support at SPS 0 port.

Flick through this thread as a refresher.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... ey=�

The AKE issue highlighted by GetAssist in separate threads is also significant and shows the repenishment bug quashing was not as successful as so many believe it to be. All up not surprising as these betas did not undergo the usual Henderson Field Design oversight.

Alfred

Thanks. Yeah, I knew of ports, and the link reminded me of the rest. I understand your thinking, but these things don't really bother me. Although it does change the game, especially the SPS-0 ports.

[Kull]

A few points:

1) There are two kinds of AI in this game, so don't confuse them:
- The first is the hard code (the tactical AI) which the computer opponent uses for things like performing search, deciding when and where to launch air attacks, evaluating whether to move into a neighboring hex to attack an enemy unit, land movement of supply, etc.
- The second is the "scripted AI" (the strategic AI) which gathers units and sends them off on a variety of missions, generally in support of the historical Japanese expansion.

The first of these is built-in and can't be altered. The second is a script, not an AI in the sense of algorithms which evaluate an opponent's moves and react to them (other than in an equally script-based way). It has been updated many times for the various "as-delivered" scenarios along with most of those in a Dev-created mod series called "DaBabes".

2) There aren't ANY user-created mods with a scripted AI tailor-made to handle all their changes. The more changes they make to the basic game, the more likely it is that the scripted AI will be unable to function, which is why ALL of them are intended for human-vs-human play. So unless you plan to start playing against humans right from the start, stay away from mods.

3) Even art and map mods need to be treated with caution, since as a new player you will be (or should be) consulting the manual a LOT and you are simply adding degree of difficulty to your learning if the illustrations in the manual don't look anything like your art-modded game.

4) You will make catastrophic errors in your initial game, and many more in those which follow. Sending your CVs to take on the Japanese while forgetting to take your air units out of training mode? Probably everyone here has done that at some point, and the results are never pretty. And there's 1000 more things that you'll only learn through trial and error. ACCORDINGLY, do not apply any of the newest "Scripted AI modules", since they only have one variant to the script (unlike the originals which had as many as 20). Multiple restarts against an opponent who does EXACTLY the same thing, every new game, is not what I call "fun". The Patch 07 AI updates from 2012 are the "happy medium" for new players. Lots of variants and lots of database fixes. When you are FINALLY ready to take on a full campaign, then and ONLY then should you update to the 2021 AI patches.

5) With many games, the devs left them in very poor shape and you need user-created mods to fix all the bugs. That is NOT the case with AE. The base game was updated well into 2016 by one of the programmers, so the really nasty bugs are long gone, and most of those which remain are barely noticeable. So you aren't missing anything if you stick with basic game.

6) Play as the Allies. The attrition rate for new players who *think* they can handle Japan is probably in the high 90s. I'll spare you the details, but you are simply asking for trouble if you go that route.

[MarkShot]

Kull,

Thank you very much for explaining the basic architecture of the game and its relation to the patches.

I have no intention to PBEM. So, I will follow your advice to the letter.

I’ve purchased 3 GG games and love the logistics. For every other game, it is tacked on as an after thought to combat. Not very realistic.

If you design a robot, the first consideration is your power source.

If you design a system, the first consideration is the network.

Thanks very much!