Let's try again

[MarkShot]

I resigned after 20 years tonight. Erik asked me to reconsider. I am reconsidering as I am very interested in these 3 GG titles.

I am sorry I did not realize, since I use an I pad sometimes, my side bar is turned off but it says "beta". I was just trying to disclose that I would be acting in the interests of Matrix as I signed a contract around 2000+. The in line post had been unnecessary.

Questions have been asked. I will assume they were sincere and not antagonistic. In general, you are free to ask questions. If I decline to answer, I will let you know.

(1a) My legal experience; USA. I spent 2/3s of my career in big corporates on Wall St. as a senior manager of software development. I spent one third with small start ups. At some point, I tired of crazy business plans and stock options. I went with a more traditional business model of billing for services. Pretty much CTOs for hire. Your business plan could succeed or failed, but we got paid. As a small business you get exposed to many areas. One being contracts. No, I did not do my own contracts, but I made sure to understand what I could.

(1b) I've taken around 10 law school courses which cover constitutional law, common law, statutory law, tort law, contracts, and procedural law. In the USA, we have two legal systems: common law (derived from our British heritage; laws establish by prior decisions and precedence) and statutory law (laws establish by legislatures). As Americans, we are considered to have dual citizenship. You are a citizen of the USA. You are a citizen of the state of your domicile. This was originally established for contracts that crossed state boundaries or plaintiff/defendants who did not think they could get a fair trial in a particular state. These days (procedural law) one seeks the venue with the highest awards or favorable decisions.

Fiduciary responsibility is a real principle applied to employees and others such as betas.

---

(2) Education is my hobby from history, to science, to medical school. I had hoped at death to know all, but I don't think that will happen. So, I study now.

---

(3) I was a software engineer, but never have been employed by the game industry. I have plenty experience as a beta and investor in game companies.

---

(4a) What do Matrix betas do? It really depends on the developer; each is different. At Panther games we had a mix. I address software issues. I do not have any service in the US military, but in the military of ROC/Taiwan (instructor). I am a software person. I also handled game promotion.

(4b) GG games have much better logistics and air war than Panther Games. Panther games uses a novel system of intelligent AI agents that act as your subordinates. It is based on the OODA loop concept. It is quite innovative and lets the player chose the level of micromanagement that suits them. The only system that resembles it is Mad Minute Game (I was a beta) that used AI agents. But in Panther you are always the senior HQ, but in MMG, you can be subordinate to the AI and a cog in the wheel.

(4c) I was also business advisor and an investor in AGEOD. (Large scale strategy/operational games.)

---

What do Matrix betas do? Whatever they ask you to do. I don't lie or omit, but you represent the best interests of Matrix. This is why I made an issue out of welcoming noobs and contacted Erik when that was not the primary culture in this forum.

---

Feel free to ask questions.

---

I grew up in the shadow of WWII watching old WWII movies. I feel this conflict shaped today's world. It is my area of interest. I find the GG games to be more comprehensive than anything out there, but I miss intelligent agents. But Panther Game would choke on try trying to handle the entire Eastern Front.

---

Other games: CMx2 (all titles); MIUS (all DLCs)

---

I am happy to join the forum. Thank you.

[Greybriar]

Welcome to the Matrix forums, Markshot.

[tolsdorff]

Welcome back.! I hope you will still begin to play WITPAE. Nothing compares to it in scope and mechanics AND, although not as knowledgeable perhaps as some, there are always people willing to lend a hand on the forum.

[Platoonist]

Ah...is the kerfuffle over? Welcome back aboard. [8D]

[InfiniteMonkey]

MarkShot,

I do not generally post on the forums anymore. The response you got as a new player had sadly become too commonplace around here. I am glad to see Erik taking a stand, but I've seen a number of new players treated the same way. You'll get a more helpful / less judgmental response on XTRG's WitP discord server ( https://discord.gg/eWuRqKV ). Hit me up there and we can voice chat. I probably have the answers to a lot of your questions bookmarked.

IM

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

MarkShot,

I do not generally post on the forums anymore. The response you got as a new player had sadly become too commonplace around here. I am glad to see Erik taking a stand, but I've seen a number of new players treated the same way. You'll get a more helpful / less judgmental response on XTRG's WitP discord server ( https://discord.gg/eWuRqKV ). Hit me up there and we can voice chat. I probably have the answers to a lot of your questions bookmarked.

IM

Your comment is becoming too commonplace. People are afraid to post to the forum anymore for fear of attack. Maybe we can finally clean this place back up and make it a welcoming non-toxic forum again. A lot of YouTubers like XTRG, THG, and SGD are bringing a lot of new players to this game. Even the post I made about that was attacked. All level players and youtubers should be welcomed not chastised. This forum is just as much a place for newbies as it is vets. Welcome Mark! We are glad to have you!

[mind_messing]

This is an interesting way to frame your entry to the forum.

Also interesting has been your approach towards the interactions with the community so far:

- Your fractious reaction to a (perfectly legitimate) satirical response. If you had carried out the research you claimed, then you would have known of compatibility between the stock game and extended maps.

- To then adopt a holier than thou attitude certainly suggests a lack of self-awareness or introspection and at the very least poor sense of humour.

- Then to escalate things to the point where you feel the need to deliver an ultimatum on resigning to the Matrix CEO?

Utterly baffling.

What's been omitted from the above is that for a substantial number of years (more than a decade?), Alfred has provided concise, accurate and authoritative commentary and advice for the community, including (but certainly not limited to) production of a number of user guides.

So far, your contribution to the AE community has resulted in Alfred being banned - the implication I take from your post here that you have had some involvement in bringing this about (however, I may very well be mistaken here).

This is not a good start, and not an approach likely to endear you to other forum denizens.

That said, it is not fatal position.

For some tactical advice:

- With all candour, your status as a beta tester (amongst other things) for a game other than AE is immaterial in this context.

- Do your research. You are far from the first person to ask the questions that you have, and there are responses aplenty that have already been posted.

- Read the room. All men may be created equal, but they were not endowed by their Creator with equal knowledge of how the mechanics of AE work. The challenge lies in knowing the difference.

[mind_messing]

People are afraid to post to the forum anymore for fear of attack. Maybe we can finally clean this place back up and make it a welcoming non-toxic forum again.

You are confusing toxicity with robust challenge.

Having incorrect information corrected, misinformation or inaccuracy addressed is a positive outcome for the forum.

The problem is that there are a number of individuals who take being told that they're wrong all too personally.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


A lot of YouTubers like XTRG, THG, and SGD are bringing a lot of new players to this game. Even the post I made about that was attacked. All level players and youtubers should be welcomed not chastised. This forum is just as much a place for newbies as it is vets. Welcome Mark! We are glad to have you!

That is a blatant misrepresentation, not backed up by the facts.

You posted links to Youtube videos of both Lodrik and Strategy Gaming Dojo covering their ongoing game. You presented this as a "Good Japanese Primer".

Alfred pointed out (quite correctly) that there were a number of factual errors in the content produced by both players.

Promotion of such material without the appropriate caveats (that both players are relatively new to the game and not subject experts) and having it used instead of an authoritative source (e.g the manual, informed forum denizens) leads to a negative feedback loop (curiously enough and again, quite correctly, pointed out by Alfred).

XTRG, THG, and SGD are doing the community a service in promoting the game, but there's also the potential for misinformation to be propagated. I don't think XTRG, THG, or SDG would describe themselves as experts at the game. The content then produced needs to be treated appropriately.

[RangerJoe]

I would have some advice for learning the game but I would not want to be reported and banned.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
What's been omitted from the above is that for a substantial number of years (more than a decade?), Alfred has provided concise, accurate and authoritative commentary and advice for the community, including (but certainly not limited to) production of a number of user guides.

So far, your contribution to the AE community has resulted in Alfred being banned - the implication I take from your post here that you have had some involvement in bringing this about (however, I may very well be mistaken here).

Let's be completely clear about this. Alfred got himself banned. Once I read the full thread from his initial reply to the later rants... it was clearly well past the line the forum rules draw for civility. Regardless of how good a player Alfred may be and how helpful he may be to veteran players, this does not justify how he responded to a new player in that thread.

I'd suggest that anyone who thinks Alfred's ban was unearned send me a PM. Personally, from what I've heard it might have been overdue and I hope it results in Alfred returning with more civility. I'm not looking to run anyone out of the community, but everyone has to follow the same set of rules, regardless of how long they've been here or how much they've contributed.

Regards,

- Erik

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

People are afraid to post to the forum anymore for fear of attack. Maybe we can finally clean this place back up and make it a welcoming non-toxic forum again.

You are confusing toxicity with robust challenge.

Having incorrect information corrected, misinformation or inaccuracy addressed is a positive outcome for the forum.

The problem is that there are a number of individuals who take being told that they're wrong all too personally.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


A lot of YouTubers like XTRG, THG, and SGD are bringing a lot of new players to this game. Even the post I made about that was attacked. All level players and youtubers should be welcomed not chastised. This forum is just as much a place for newbies as it is vets. Welcome Mark! We are glad to have you!

That is a blatant misrepresentation, not backed up by the facts.

You posted links to Youtube videos of both Lodrik and Strategy Gaming Dojo covering their ongoing game. You presented this as a "Good Japanese Primer".

Alfred pointed out (quite correctly) that there were a number of factual errors in the content produced by both players.

Promotion of such material without the appropriate caveats (that both players are relatively new to the game and not subject experts) and having it used instead of an authoritative source (e.g the manual, informed forum denizens) leads to a negative feedback loop (curiously enough and again, quite correctly, pointed out by Alfred).

XTRG, THG, and SGD are doing the community a service in promoting the game, but there's also the potential for misinformation to be propagated. I don't think XTRG, THG, or SDG would describe themselves as experts at the game. The content then produced needs to be treated appropriately.

I am happy to be challenged. I am happy to be told I am wrong in a substantive discussion about subject matter. That is the point of a forum. Discussion of a subject. The point of a forum is not the prevention of discussion. When I ask a question I am not stating I know the answer and am looking for debate. I am asking for discussion to increase knowledge of a subject. Not to be attacked for asking for discussion. There is a BIG difference in attacking people just for bringing up discussion vs debating substance in a discussion. I am ALL FOR THAT. Bring me the substantial discussion not the toxicity of debating whether discussion should even be brought up in a forum. So what if questions are asked that have been asked before? Refreshers are always helpful and newbies are always looking to learn. Lets all grow up and move on from bullying like we are in kindergarten.

So we can't post links to a good YT series we think others might enjoy or get something out of now? Yes I think Lodrik offers some good Japanese game play. Better than any other YouTubers I have seen. Those guys are not newbies to the game but they don't know everything. Not that they were the Gods of WITPAE. But they still offer a lot of good tips and observations. We all do. We all get things wrong about this game. That's why we all love it.

As I said in that post of course the quality of advice can be variable. Can say pretty much the same of so many posts and AARs in this forum. Everyone has a different answer, method, opinion, advice, goto, hunch, guess, whatever. Because this game is so massive. I dismiss none of it. I get a lot of great ideas from all of it. I've gotten a lot of great ideas from everything I have watched or read. Or they make me think about things I have not before. Or question my own ideas. Even if lots of people are wrong or misinformed or whatever. You just have to weed through all of it. I get so many different responses whenever I make a post and everyone thinks they are right. I find it hilarious when people say they know everything about this game. Pretty much every question I have posted in this forum has proven that wrong. But that is what makes this game so great.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

People are afraid to post to the forum anymore for fear of attack. Maybe we can finally clean this place back up and make it a welcoming non-toxic forum again.

You are confusing toxicity with robust challenge.

Having incorrect information corrected, misinformation or inaccuracy addressed is a positive outcome for the forum.

The problem is that there are a number of individuals who take being told that they're wrong all too personally.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


A lot of YouTubers like XTRG, THG, and SGD are bringing a lot of new players to this game. Even the post I made about that was attacked. All level players and youtubers should be welcomed not chastised. This forum is just as much a place for newbies as it is vets. Welcome Mark! We are glad to have you!

That is a blatant misrepresentation, not backed up by the facts.

You posted links to Youtube videos of both Lodrik and Strategy Gaming Dojo covering their ongoing game. You presented this as a "Good Japanese Primer".

Alfred pointed out (quite correctly) that there were a number of factual errors in the content produced by both players.

Promotion of such material without the appropriate caveats (that both players are relatively new to the game and not subject experts) and having it used instead of an authoritative source (e.g the manual, informed forum denizens) leads to a negative feedback loop (curiously enough and again, quite correctly, pointed out by Alfred).

XTRG, THG, and SGD are doing the community a service in promoting the game, but there's also the potential for misinformation to be propagated. I don't think XTRG, THG, or SDG would describe themselves as experts at the game. The content then produced needs to be treated appropriately.

I am happy to be challenged.[...]

From the kneejerk response that you have since edited, I'm not sure that's really the case. Nevertheless I'll proceed on the assumption that it is the case.

If not from challenge, where does the toxicity that you refer to originate from?

So we can't post links to a good YT series we think others might enjoy or get something out of now? Yes I think Lodrik offers some good Japanese game play. Better than any other YouTubers I have seen. Those guys are not newbies to the game but they don't know everything. Not that they were the Gods of WITPAE. But they still offer a lot of good tips and observations. We all do. We all get things wrong about this game. That's why we all love it.

The issue was not posting links to YT series that others might enjoy. If it had been framed as such

The issue was that you posted links to YT series with the thread title "Great Japanese Primer Highly Recommend. This guy knows his stuff".

Alfred, joined by other long-term members of the forum, pointed out the issues and implications of doing this.

From a superficial examination, neither of those videos positions itself as a primer. That seems to have been you addition. To your credit, you have since edited that post and title to make it less hagiographic.

As I said [...] so great.

I'll refer you to the witty comment I made earlier.

All men may be created equal, but they were not endowed by their Creator with equal knowledge of how the mechanics of AE work. The challenge lies in knowing the difference.

Alfred is one of those endowed with greater knowledge in the domain of AE.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



You are confusing toxicity with robust challenge.

Having incorrect information corrected, misinformation or inaccuracy addressed is a positive outcome for the forum.

The problem is that there are a number of individuals who take being told that they're wrong all too personally.



That is a blatant misrepresentation, not backed up by the facts.

You posted links to Youtube videos of both Lodrik and Strategy Gaming Dojo covering their ongoing game. You presented this as a "Good Japanese Primer".

Alfred pointed out (quite correctly) that there were a number of factual errors in the content produced by both players.

Promotion of such material without the appropriate caveats (that both players are relatively new to the game and not subject experts) and having it used instead of an authoritative source (e.g the manual, informed forum denizens) leads to a negative feedback loop (curiously enough and again, quite correctly, pointed out by Alfred).

XTRG, THG, and SGD are doing the community a service in promoting the game, but there's also the potential for misinformation to be propagated. I don't think XTRG, THG, or SDG would describe themselves as experts at the game. The content then produced needs to be treated appropriately.

I am happy to be challenged.[...]

From the kneejerk response that you have since edited, I'm not sure that's really the case. Nevertheless I'll proceed on the assumption that it is the case.

If not from challenge, where does the toxicity that you refer to originate from?

So we can't post links to a good YT series we think others might enjoy or get something out of now? Yes I think Lodrik offers some good Japanese game play. Better than any other YouTubers I have seen. Those guys are not newbies to the game but they don't know everything. Not that they were the Gods of WITPAE. But they still offer a lot of good tips and observations. We all do. We all get things wrong about this game. That's why we all love it.

The issue was not posting links to YT series that others might enjoy. If it had been framed as such

The issue was that you posted links to YT series with the thread title "Great Japanese Primer Highly Recommend. This guy knows his stuff".

Alfred, joined by other long-term members of the forum, pointed out the issues and implications of doing this.

From a superficial examination, neither of those videos positions itself as a primer. That seems to have been you addition. To your credit, you have since edited that post and title to make it less hagiographic.

As I said [...] so great.

I'll refer you to the witty comment I made earlier.

All men may be created equal, but they were not endowed by their Creator with equal knowledge of how the mechanics of AE work. The challenge lies in knowing the difference.

Alfred is one of those endowed with greater knowledge in the domain of AE.

Toxicity results from someone that acts like they own the forum, acts like they are the gatekeeper of the game and the forum, responds in kind to posts, goes on egocentric rants about people and the questions they ask on the forum...I could go on and on...

I've never questioned Alfred's knowledge of the game only his poor egocentric I AM GOD attitude towards others. You are blinded by something if you do not see that and if you think I am the only one that sees that you are kidding yourself...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

And yes I think watching Lodrik play as the Japanese is a good beginner Japanese (primer) series to watch. So shoot me.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

So we can't post links to a good YT series we think others might enjoy or get something out of now? Yes I think Lodrik offers some good Japanese game play. Better than any other YouTubers I have seen. Those guys are not newbies to the game but they don't know everything. Not that they were the Gods of WITPAE. But they still offer a lot of good tips and observations. We all do. We all get things wrong about this game. That's why we all love it.

The issue was not posting links to YT series that others might enjoy. If it had been framed as such

The issue was that you posted links to YT series with the thread title "Great Japanese Primer Highly Recommend. This guy knows his stuff".

Alfred, joined by other long-term members of the forum, pointed out the issues and implications of doing this.

From a superficial examination, neither of those videos positions itself as a primer. That seems to have been you addition. To your credit, you have since edited that post and title to make it less hagiographic.

I took a look for this thread, which I found here:

fb.asp?m=5075665

Here's Alfred's reply to someone enthusiastically sharing some videos about WITP-AE. I have bolded a few key passages:

"Every time I click on a youtube AE channel which is presented to the forum as being the product of someone who really knows their stuff, without failure I find them to be riddled with significant errors. These two links have fully complied with the usual"quality". That was 170 minutes of misinformation. It explains why all the newbie who refuse to read the official documentation, which is accurate, then come to the forum and display just how little they kin ow about the game.

It was President Lincoln who said:

You can fool some of the people all the time, you can fool all the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

That was said in the pre-Youtube era for nowadays with anyone able to upload Youtube videos, it is in fact possible to fool all the people all the time. The AE videos are proof of the new paradigm.

Alfred"

As a player trying to learn the game, that reply basically tells you the following:

1. You have shared misinformation
2. You have shown you are ignorant
3. You are a gullible fool

Now, the videos may have been misinformation, but if someone is not already an experienced WITP-AE player, they're not going to know that and it's far from civil to therefore state that they are showing ignorance and foolishness. If you don't want video creators covering WITP-AE, this is also a good way to achieve that.

Alternately, a reply like this would have been civil, helpful and within the forum rules:

"Every time I click on a youtube AE channel which is presented to the forum as being the product of someone who really knows their stuff, without failure I find them to be riddled with significant errors. Unfortunately, these also matched that description.

I would suggest that you instead read these guides, threads, AARs, etc. as well as the manual if you want to really learn how to play the Japanese side well. You may want to share these with the video creator as well, as it may help improve his grasp of the game:

<helpful links>

Alfred"

Regards,

- Erik

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Tanaka



I am happy to be challenged.[...]

From the kneejerk response that you have since edited, I'm not sure that's really the case. Nevertheless I'll proceed on the assumption that it is the case.

If not from challenge, where does the toxicity that you refer to originate from?

So we can't post links to a good YT series we think others might enjoy or get something out of now? Yes I think Lodrik offers some good Japanese game play. Better than any other YouTubers I have seen. Those guys are not newbies to the game but they don't know everything. Not that they were the Gods of WITPAE. But they still offer a lot of good tips and observations. We all do. We all get things wrong about this game. That's why we all love it.

The issue was not posting links to YT series that others might enjoy. If it had been framed as such

The issue was that you posted links to YT series with the thread title "Great Japanese Primer Highly Recommend. This guy knows his stuff".

Alfred, joined by other long-term members of the forum, pointed out the issues and implications of doing this.

From a superficial examination, neither of those videos positions itself as a primer. That seems to have been you addition. To your credit, you have since edited that post and title to make it less hagiographic.

As I said [...] so great.

I'll refer you to the witty comment I made earlier.

All men may be created equal, but they were not endowed by their Creator with equal knowledge of how the mechanics of AE work. The challenge lies in knowing the difference.

Alfred is one of those endowed with greater knowledge in the domain of AE.

Toxicity results from someone that acts like they own the forum, acts like they are the gatekeeper of the game and the forum, responds in kind to posts, goes on egocentric rants about people and the questions they ask on the forum...I could go on and on...

I've never questioned Alfred's knowledge of the game only his poor egocentric I AM GOD attitude towards others. You are blinded by something if you do not see that and if you think I am the only one that sees that you are kidding yourself...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

And yes I think watching Lodrik play as the Japanese is a good beginner (primer) series to watch. So shoot me.

What do you want to be shot with?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




From the kneejerk response that you have since edited, I'm not sure that's really the case. Nevertheless I'll proceed on the assumption that it is the case.

If not from challenge, where does the toxicity that you refer to originate from?



The issue was not posting links to YT series that others might enjoy. If it had been framed as such

The issue was that you posted links to YT series with the thread title "Great Japanese Primer Highly Recommend. This guy knows his stuff".

Alfred, joined by other long-term members of the forum, pointed out the issues and implications of doing this.

From a superficial examination, neither of those videos positions itself as a primer. That seems to have been you addition. To your credit, you have since edited that post and title to make it less hagiographic.



I'll refer you to the witty comment I made earlier.

All men may be created equal, but they were not endowed by their Creator with equal knowledge of how the mechanics of AE work. The challenge lies in knowing the difference.

Alfred is one of those endowed with greater knowledge in the domain of AE.

Toxicity results from someone that acts like they own the forum, acts like they are the gatekeeper of the game and the forum, responds in kind to posts, goes on egocentric rants about people and the questions they ask on the forum...I could go on and on...

I've never questioned Alfred's knowledge of the game only his poor egocentric I AM GOD attitude towards others. You are blinded by something if you do not see that and if you think I am the only one that sees that you are kidding yourself...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

And yes I think watching Lodrik play as the Japanese is a good beginner (primer) series to watch. So shoot me.

What do you want to be shot with?

At this point a shot of alcohol.

[MarkShot]

Thanks all, for the warm welcome. I still have 4.5 hrs of Dojo video to complete.

I have read a lot of forum posts/maps info/utilities etc ...

I don't have the manual until I buy it. I know I could have it now if I asked Roger, Joel, or Erik. But to be honest I am still rereading the WITW and WITE-2 manuals.

I think I got the basics I need to get it installed and working. I probably won't have more questions until next month.

I have already given Erik source and executables which fix map scrolling for WITW and WITE-2 in a multi-display configuration. My guess is that this title will probably have the same issue. If so, I will roll a fix for this game as well, and provide it to Erik. (I don't want to host executable code myself given the amount of scams that exist these days. Better for Matrix to host if they find it useful, since customers trust Matrix even when AV software is flashing on a beta patch installer.)

Thanks again.

[Yaab]

I love how bellicose this forum gets the closer we get to the December 7 anniversary.

[MarkShot]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I love how bellicose this forum gets the closer we get to the December 7 anniversary.

Okay. I am out here in the Pacific South of Japan, and it was December 8th.

But still I think FDR got his point across.

[tolsdorff]

....

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

People are afraid to post to the forum anymore for fear of attack. Maybe we can finally clean this place back up and make it a welcoming non-toxic forum again.

You are confusing toxicity with robust challenge.

...

Who knows after all this, Canoerebel might even return as a forum regular. A very knowledgeable creative forumite who mastered the game as few others have.