Air units values

[ncc1701e]

It seems I don't understand anything. Linked to the air power thread without going off topic, what are the values used for attack/defence for this air unit? The values on the left or on the right?

I assume the values on the left are the based values for the air unit and the values on the right are the real ones after addition of the advancement level.

Is it correct?

[ncc1701e]

Now reading the manual for Naval Air, the base value for a Tactical Air Group is 2 in the manual.
So why is it showing Naval Air 1 on the left side in the air unit attributes?

[ncc1701e]

And second question, why is it showing Naval Air 2 on the right side in the air unit attributes in the screenshot of the first post?
Since the advancement level is Close Support 1941 and this is not modifying Naval Air value, why do we have such a difference? 1 on the left, 2 on the right.

Is it working as intended?

[ncc1701e]

All right, so firing the Europe 1939 scenario, I am finding exactly the manual values on the right.

So I begin to understand that the left values are actually the ones used for combat.

But then, I see that this air unit, that has not yet fight, has the following attributes:

Air combat 4 (based value of 5)
Tactical 4 (based value of 5)
Strategic 4 (based value of 5)
Naval Air 1 (based value of 2)
Anti-Air 2 (based value of 2)

Why is there such a difference?

My unit is at 60% experience so above average for the Germans that are at 50% based experience.
My unit is also at 100% effectiveness.

Is the calculation done on an air unit with a 100% experience? Something that is impossible to reach.

[ncc1701e]

I fear this is based on 100% experience when I see this unit.

All the values are corresponding except the following one:

Air combat 7 (based value of 8)

And the unit is at 70% experience and 100% effectiveness.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Is the calculation done on an air unit with a 100% experience? Something that is impossible to reach.

Yes. But like you I don't understand why some numbers on the Left don't seem to work. In other words, multiplying the numbers on the Right by the Experience and Effectiveness %, the number on the Left should be different. For example, Tactical of 5 multiplied by 60% is 3. But the Tactical Strength on the Left is shown as 4. Same for Air Combat and Strategic. Maybe there is something else going on "under the hood" where the number on the left gets multiplied by 120% or something.

[Nirosi]

It is definitively the base stats multiplied by both XP and readiness. Multiplying the base stats is actually the only use (as far as I know and noticed yet) for readiness and XP. I know a unit can not, or probably not, reach 100% (have seen once 98% with elite; fond memory), but it does not matter. It is a simple and elegant way in my opinion to create an easy scale of strength/value for which we can understand and more or less predict the changes.

However, with readiness and XP been based on precise percentage, it is more (much more) than probable that the real stats is much more precise than the round number we see. So depending on the way Alvaro decided to round it up for aesthetics (and display space maybe), a stats of 2, could very well be 1.75 or 2.78 (for land, air and naval)? That could explain discrepancy in the number we see, depending on the rounding formula used. So when we see a number move from 1 to 2, I honestly think it means nothing, since the real number probably just gained the 0.1% missing for rounding the display for us.

This goes perfectly in line with what Alvaro said today about a 7% reduction in effectiveness been on average 7% less damage inflicted on enemy. This can only mean that the number that are actually used by the program are more precise when takin into account strikes, odds, combat etc. than the round ones we see for our convenience.

If we really really want to know the real number we can simply multiply the base of the actually tech by readiness and XP. But frankly, not sure I really care if a unit has 3.4 guns value or 3.9. I know it will not change anything I do knowing that. Especially since the odds, probably, show it with the real numbers anyway (adding all those precise number; except is seems air). But I can understand that some people with other style of play will want to know very precise info such as this one.

For the tactical air Harry mentioned just above, it is puzzling. It should be exactly 3.00. Same with the fighter ncc1701e mentioned (cool name by the way[:)]), should display as either 5 or 6. [&:] Either there is something more under the hood as Harry said, or maybe a bug? Might be worth to show to Alvaro.

[AlvaroSousa]

(strength X ((stat + tech) X readiness% X experience%)) X internal modifier so you all don't get numbers like 147.

Rounded down.

[Nirosi]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

(strength X ((stat + tech) X readiness% X experience%)) X internal modifier so you all don't get numbers like 147.

Rounded down.

Hi Alvaro,

Thanks for the answer.

By Rounded down I guess you mean for display purposes (such a "2") but that there is a real not rounded number (such as "2.45" or whatever) that is the one really used for combat etc. ?

And by "Internal modifier" it is the secret number to make us more like generals and less like statisticians?

[ncc1701e]

I start to understand why my planes are not good at Naval Air. They are always at 1.

[Nirosi]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I start to understand why my planes are not good at Naval Air. They are always at 1.

From what I take from Alvaro's answer, that 1 is anywhere from 1 to 1.99. But ya, not that much either way against ships.

[ncc1701e]

The drop is very quick. After only two combats, this unit move from air combat 7 to air combat 5.

Experience 70% -> 71%
Effectiveness 100 -> 82%

By chance, this is the same from my enemy...

[Nirosi]

Seems more or less coherent with the loss in effectiveness.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I fear this is based on 100% experience when I see this unit.

All the values are corresponding except the following one:

Air combat 7 (based value of 8)

And the unit is at 70% experience and 100% effectiveness.

What is puzzling me with this calculation is that a 1943 interceptor (experience 54%, I buy it in 1940 and effectiveness at 92%, that is not too bad) is having the exact same Air combat of 7 than the above 1940 interceptor (of course experience of 70% is acting). But since the based air experience is around 50% for every country, and it is very slow to increase (we are early 1944 in this screenshot), it means that we don't have quite ability to do pretty much than Air combat 7 - 8. Same problem for all air attributes (tactical, naval air, ...).

Air experience gained from air to air combat and air to ground combat needs perhaps a little boost...

[Nirosi]

As you said, the 70% is the (big) difference here. But it is a boost for Germany at start that will soon fade.

In that case 8x100x70 gives 5.6 (plus whatever hidden mystery x is) and 11x92x54 gives 5.5. So it does make sense that they are equal here (for display anyway) because the much higher XP of the 1939 one makes it "compensate" the technology by skills. I believe it is the whole point in that way to calculate.

What is important, is that for equal XP and readiness, a fighter that goes from 10 to 11 air combat will be 10% more efficient than a fighter still at 10. Even if both might show as 7 for example in the display because of rounding.

We will probably never (or very rarely) reach the max Strength of unit, but it does not matter, it is just a scale. What count is the strength vs the enemy that will use the same formula.

[AlvaroSousa]

Correct the game is on a scale that impacts the entire war. Thus why skilled players do better. I designed the system a bit abstracted so players don't min-max the game.

If it was a min-max game than all a player would need to do to improve is follow a protocol.

Like this card game Magic the Gathering. Excellent card game. Someone can create an amazing powerful deck and do well in competition.
But when the internet posts his deck now everyone gains incredible advantage by having that exact, min-max, deck.

WarPlan you can give guidelines but players still have a sliding scale of learning. Like build more armor. But how much? when? For France it is relatively easy to min-max but that's ok. It isn't game breaking.