Drop Tanks (revisited)

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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DeletedUser44
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Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by DeletedUser44 »

Guys,

Don't know if I can really buy into this "drop-tank" not being used theory.

Part of my doubt comes from lack of any historical references to it. Most of the information I have point to the contrary.

Furthermore, given the current logistical system, it is next to impossible to exert any meaningful Luftwaffe presence over Smolensk in July 1941 given the very overly-short combat radii of the Bf 109Fs.

So, in the absence of drop-tanks, the following historical account of the Luftwaffe flying 12,653 sorties over Smolensk in July 1941 is pure fantasy in WiTE2 -
The most concerning aspect for the Axis at this stage as the lack of aircraft. The VVS Western Front had received 900 new aircraft in July. In contrast, Luftflotte 2 had lost 447 in the opening battles for Smolensk, 6 to 19 July. On the Eastern Front the Luftwaffe had lost 1,284 aircraft, half of its original strength. The Kampfgruppen still contributed to the fighting; claiming 126 trains and 15 supply bridges destroyed at Orel, Korobets and Stodolishsche. Another 73 precious motor vehicles, 22 tanks, 15 rail cars had also been destroyed by German air attacks along with another 40 on 25 July. As the pocket was finally destroyed in early August, the Luftwaffe contributed with another round of claims; 100 tanks, 1,500 trucks, 41 artillery pieces and 24 AAA batteries in Smolensk alone. The intensity of the air war over Smolensk it indicated in the number of operations and sorties flown; 12,653 German and 5,200 Soviet.

And furthermore, considering:
Propeller pitch was changed electrically, and was regulated by a constant-speed unit, though a manual override was still provided. Thanks to the improved aerodynamics, more fuel-efficient engines and the introduction of light-alloy versions of the standard Luftwaffe 300-litre drop tank, the Bf 109 F offered a much increased maximum range of 1,700 km (1,060 mi) compared to the Bf 109 E's maximum range figure of only 660 km (410 miles) on internal fuel, and with the E-7's provision for the 300-litre drop tank, a Bf 109E so equipped possessed double the range, to 1,325 km (820 mi).

any claim that drop-tanks were not being employed on the Eastern Front, at a time when advanced air bases were at a premium and impossible to fully supply, is utter hog-wash.

For Matrix to claim that the Luftwaffe is going to pass up the opportunity to nearly double the range of their fighter forces at this critical juncture in order to extend air coverage over their advancing Panzer forces? At a time when they are needed the most?

I personally find that less than credible and highly suspect.

----

In a perfect game, July 27th is the absolute earliest you can get a rail connection to Smolensk. Even then, it will take some weeks to repair the rail infrastructure to the point of having a supply network capable of supporting any meaningful localized Luftwaffe airbases in the area.

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Gunnulf
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Gunnulf »

You can get air bases at Orsha on turn 3, fairly easily supplied by air until they connect to rail in turn 5. This will give you fighter cover over Smolensk throughout July. But not Orel of course where your quote indicates bombers were operating. But maybe thats the point behind the high losses? The Luftwaffe was overconfident of its initial success and was starting to lose unescorted bombers roaming as far as Orel? I can fully believe that drop tanks for the Luftwaffe in the East were a relatively scarce single use luxury that were no doubt used, but not routinely in the same way that the decadent Allied air forces had them available. I guess thats a difficulty for the game limit their use rather than allowing the JGS to run them by default and giving greater range for too many sorties.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Joel Billings »

Yes, getting the LW over Smolensk in July should not be difficult. I trust Dennis with regards to having good info re the Luftwaffe operations, but if you have some hard info regarding use of drop tanks in the east I'm sure he's willing to look at it.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Cavalry Corp »

Found this...may not apply all the time to Russia but the important thing is it could have done - plse let players choose how to use fuel. I read it uses a lot more and if a base does not have the fuel they will not fly - that is fair enough.





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ShaggyHiK
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by ShaggyHiK »

It does not work as shown in the picture. Firstly, these values ​​are taken from ideal flight conditions, and secondly, the possibility of an early meeting with enemy fighters, which will lead to a premature discharge of tanks, is not taken into account. In addition, a new and old engine uses fuel in different ways.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by ShaggyHiK »

Here are a couple of simple, highly simplified examples.
He-111 flies at 4 km altitude. With a speed of 320 km / h. It is able to fly in a simplified form ~ 4 hours.
At the same time, cover fighters fly at a slightly higher altitude for themselves and go at an altitude of 4500 m at a speed of 440 km / h, even with additional tanks, the engine will consume fuel 2 times faster, which is why there is fuel for only 2 hours of operation.
With all the desire of the fighters to cover the bombers during the entire 4 hours of the flight with one group, the fighters would not be able to.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Denniss »

the range figues of the 109G/K are overly optimistic
a british-captured 109G in very good condition made 1020-1045 miles with drop tank at an economic cruise speed of 210 miles and an alt of 18k feet.
Sadly no info whether the 18k climb is included or not.
No DT range is given at 415 miles at 316 mph or 590 miles at 210 mph

and you can't fly a K-4 just on B-4 fuel as it would severly limit its performance (max engine setting not available so even slower than 109G)
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by ShaggyHiK »

Considering the above, on the eastern front, the use of additional tanks was severely limited, and in game mechanics this gives an unfair advantage in flight range, when with tanks the plane in the game flies farther than it actually does, due to the influence of factors that were not taken into Attention.
Also, as a result of the increasing range, German aviation is able to fight too effectively, accompanying very long flights of bombers along the entire route with one group along, although in reality this would not be possible, and the accompaniment of at least two different groups would be required. or even three.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Cavalry Corp »

Guys - I am not say its x or Y range I was just saying that they could carry them.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by ShaggyHiK »

Then where is your indignation at the fact that the USSR does not have hanging tanks in all? They were also in the Soviet aviation. In addition, they were used for flights in the Crimea, which would be quite important in the conditions of the game.
I-16 MiG-3 could carry such tanks, just imagine how such a group rises from the Crimea and can cover attack aircraft in raids on Ploiesti.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Cavalry Corp »

My question was about the side I play - Yes OK Soviets too. In these big games I generally only learn one side - do not have much time.
LW 109 has drop tanks until end June but not after I think. Why have them at all?

The game is a depiction in extreme detail, if so its not unreasonable that this issue should be looked at for both sides.

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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by ShaggyHiK »

I believe if you give the player the ability to fly with tanks, this will lead to too many situations of hypothetical from alternative universes.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Denniss »

If the tanks were available they'd become standard equipment for all ops on both sides. This would be far from historical.
I can't rule out they would be issued for well prepared attacks like Kursk but thouse would be massive exceptions from the general use (= none available)
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Gunnulf »

Maybe this is a case where 1AP would give your group drop tanks for 1 turn. But easier said than done to impliment. If you really need them for a mission you could request them then but to routinely use them would drain the AP pool. That said, I'm sure its not an easy one to implement, and also sometimes later in the game AP is not much of a constraint so its open for abuse perhaps and it might also need to be a production item with some limits too. Not easy to prevent a player saving up for a massive a-historical flying show.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Cavalry Corp »

This is a problem for the game designers. They have built in complexity which we all seem to enjoy but that means tackling issues like this.

I read in the rules that fuel at AB limits use - so maybe fuel at basses has to be at say min 80% plus and a certain size field or something to allow them to be used - I think a similar thing to this applies in WITP AE.



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loki100
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by loki100 »

I'd suggest the issue is 'tackled'. A loadout that was pretty much never used on the Soviet front is not available on the Soviet front.

I think the at-start treatment reflects that many of these formations were fairly rapidly redeployed from the UK. Overy (the Bombing War - seriously suggest a read) makes the point that the LW carried on a campaign over the UK till early June so as to disguise the redeployment to Poland as long as possible.

So, not really reflected in the game, a number of bomber squadrons arrived pretty beaten up. To the point of this debate, other formations were moved as they were, so if they used drop tanks over the UK, then those came to Poland with them - but as a one off asset.
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RE: Drop Tanks (revisited)

Post by Cavalry Corp »

OK thanks for the reasoning behind the decisions...
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