The Soviet Union has no playability now

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

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Gunnulf
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Gunnulf »

The Soviets are definately difficult in 41/42, bordering on masochistic to play for sure, but certainly far from unplayable. There are AARs out there of the Axis being held up but its not easy for sure. Attached is not an AAR but the latest turn of my soviet game, played on the latest patch against a reasonable player. He took big chunks out of my armies at every turn with 189 divisions destroyed, each line I tried to hold seemed to end in another army pocketed. Yet here we are at the start of Dec41 with the resistance having paid off he was held short in front of Orel, Rzhev Kursk, Stalino and Sevastapol and the first proper blizzard turn has been quite painful for the Axis.
Its tough for the Soviets, but way off being unplayable. The example you post in the screenshot is of 2 Panzer, 2 motorised and 1 Fallshirjager beating up an unfortified 3 divisions abeit in rough terrain, and an infantry corps verus and infantry corps in swamp. Both losses but not disasterous, and if I had not seen the result in advance I think I would have roughly guessed the outcome. But as has been pointed out, both these fights are taking place in May42 close to Minsk so it doesn't seem like your campaign has really been a disaster overall either? Frustrating at time I'm sure, but you have held the Axis further west than historical by a long way so unplayable seems a stretch unless.

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DesertedFox
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by DesertedFox »

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

The Soviets are definately difficult in 41/42, bordering on masochistic to play for sure, but certainly far from unplayable. There are AARs out there of the Axis being held up but its not easy for sure.


Please provide the links to these AARs that deal only with games playing GC 41 that started with the latest Beta patch?

There is only 1 to my knowledge jubjub vs Beethoven and as I have seen the state of that game past what's currently up in the AAR forums, and it doesn't support your "Axis being held up".

Still, I am interested to look at the others you have obviously seen which I have missed.
Sir.Arnold
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Sir.Arnold »

Sadly, even is Stalingrad to Berlin scenario, you will still be "magically" by the German army Disrupted 50%-90% troops

and you can download my attachment. There are more pictures in it. It shows that even level 3 fortress will still have "magically" disrupted and CV decreases

This either BUG or serious WAD problems
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold
At present, the Soviet Union has no playability. No matter how you fight, even if you are not surrounded on a large scale, Germany can cause 3 million casualties to you in September 41.

Even in the winter of 41, the German artillery can still magically Disrupted more than 50%-90% of your troops in any weather and terrain except urban

Even if you destroy 2 million Axis forces in the winter of 41 [...]

Well, you're basically describing Barbarossa. So in fact the game seems to more or less replicate the real thing. The Game 1 - 0 You.

"Destroy 2 million Axis forces in the winter of 41"? Looks like that was impossible in the real thing and -hopefully- in the game.

The Game 2 - 0 You.

Best regards
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
jubjub
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by jubjub »

Honestly, it sounds like you got used to auto-win by pressing the AHQ button, and have given up now that it's not so easy.

Before these changes, the Soviets were hopelessly OP. Out of 6+ of my pvp games, only two made it past the 1941 HWM. Out of these, 1 will end on the 1942 HWM, and the other was vs HYLA, whose games shouldn't really reflect balance. On the other hand, Germany was an absolute grindfest after turn 3. I felt like a masochist for playing them.

My game that started after the changes is difficult, but it's not impossible. Maybe instead of crying about it, get better and adapt to the new game before claiming the sky is falling.
Sir.Arnold
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Sir.Arnold »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold
At present, the Soviet Union has no playability. No matter how you fight, even if you are not surrounded on a large scale, Germany can cause 3 million casualties to you in September 41.

Even in the winter of 41, the German artillery can still magically Disrupted more than 50%-90% of your troops in any weather and terrain except urban

Even if you destroy 2 million Axis forces in the winter of 41 [...]

Well, you're basically describing Barbarossa. So in fact the game seems to more or less replicate the real thing. The Game 1 - 0 You.

"Destroy 2 million Axis forces in the winter of 41"? Looks like that was impossible in the real thing and -hopefully- in the game.

The Game 2 - 0 You.

Best regards

I’m sorry that you’re wrong, because even in the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario, everything I’ve said existed. It was the winter of 1943.
AlbertN
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by AlbertN »

And in Winter '43 the Russians when going on the offensive, smartly smashed Axis minors and not the Germans.
One may wonder why, even in Winter '43. Ah yes because the other offensive, against German forces, did not exactly went so well for the Russians. (Besides it is simply more efficient to hit the weather spots).

I agree with JubJub on that notion notheless.
Sir.Arnold
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Sir.Arnold »

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

And in Winter '43 the Russians when going on the offensive, smartly smashed Axis minors and not the Germans.
One may wonder why, even in Winter '43. Ah yes because the other offensive, against German forces, did not exactly went so well for the Russians. (Besides it is simply more efficient to hit the weather spots).

I agree with JubJub on that notion notheless.

German army not God of the war

This is obviously the Soviet bias

I know you want to say Lezhev

However, the battle near Lezhev is more like WW1. In the game, it is equivalent to the Soviet Union attacking the German army at Level 3 fortress. I didn't say that the Soviet army can still break through the German defense line in this case. In fact, I rarely do so in the game

What I'm saying is that the Soviet Union will still be defeated in defense, not attack, even in 1943
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold
I’m sorry that you’re wrong, because even in the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario, everything I’ve said existed. It was the winter of 1943.

There should be a clear divide. Before the "turning point" or november '42 (aka smash the weak allies on the flanks and annihilate a whole German army) and after that moment. Before = [Soviet] catastrophes, catastrophes and more catastrophes. After = start stuffing the Germans. As long as this works I can't see any problem.

I was not wrong when I said you were describing er, Barbarossa.

Best regards
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
jubjub
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by jubjub »

What I'm saying is that the Soviet Union will still be defeated in defense, not attack, even in 1943

This is just not true. Try putting rifle corps in the way of the German offense and see how the Germans fare.
Sir.Arnold
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Sir.Arnold »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold
I’m sorry that you’re wrong, because even in the Stalingrad to Berlin scenario, everything I’ve said existed. It was the winter of 1943.

There should be a clear divide. Before the "turning point" or november '42 (aka smash the weak allies on the flanks and annihilate a whole German army) and after that moment. Before = [Soviet] catastrophes, catastrophes and more catastrophes. After = start stuffing the Germans. As long as this works I can't see any problem.

I was not wrong when I said you were describing er, Barbarossa.

Best regards

I can only say that many people are too superstitious about the German army

The failure of the Soviet Union in 41-42 was really more due to the Soviet Union’s strategic command errors
for example

In June 41, the entire Soviet army had serious logistical problems. This has multiple historical facts. At the same time, the entire Western Front defensive positions were arranged incorrectly. This was the main reason for the German army success in June-July 41

The Soviet forces, especially the mechanized forces, were too superstitious in mobile operations, resulting in a large number of mechanized forces losing their combat effectiveness during the maneuvering process (such as the 8th Mechanized corps)

41 Smolensk, the high-level Soviet generals forced the unequipped Soviet infantry division to launch an offensive against the German army (this is obviously a suicide, some generals did not follow the order and played well, such as Lukin and Rokosovsky)

41 In Kiev, Stalin and high-level generals’ miscommands led to the annihilation of nearly 600,000 troops

In the winter of 41, if it were not for the total TOE of the Soviet infantry division at that time, generally only about 50%, and Stalin wrongly launched a full counterattack, the German Army Group Central was destroyed in the winter of 41 (you can read Glantz's book, It has a detailed description)

In the summer of 42, Stalin and high-ranking generals not only misjudged the main direction of the German army, but also wrongly overestimated the offensive capabilities of the Red Army. They launched the Battle of Lezhev, resulting in losses of more than 1 million troops. At the same time, the southern line was defeated by the Germans. Until the German army stopped in the Caucasus and Stalingrad due to supply problems

These problems are the command problems of Stalin and high-level generals. Players can avoid them.

That's why I play this game

I am a person who likes to study more. I have also done a lot of research on the Eastern Front of World War II. Many people mistakenly overestimated the combat capabilities of the German army. The German army achieved a lot of results in 41-42 because the Soviet Union made a lot of mistakes. Many, not that the Germans were too strong. By 43 Kursk, the Soviet Union corrected their mistakes, and the result was that the Germans lost, completely lost.
ShaggyHiK
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by ShaggyHiK »

A question for the German players, in your opinion, is this an adequate outcome?

The battle for Tallinn takes place on turn 3, the power ratio is 1.2 to 1 and the city is taken. In the combat statistics, as you can see, there are almost no division units in the defense of the division, even 1/10 of its composition does not participate, but the final losses of the Soviet division kill most of all. The Germans were able to clear the city from the Soviet infantry, having lost only 53 people.
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ShaggyHiK
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by ShaggyHiK »

The entire composition of the division lost after the battle:
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ShaggyHiK
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by ShaggyHiK »

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

And in Winter '43 the Russians when going on the offensive, smartly smashed Axis minors and not the Germans.
One may wonder why, even in Winter '43. Ah yes because the other offensive, against German forces, did not exactly went so well for the Russians. (Besides it is simply more efficient to hit the weather spots).

I agree with JubJub on that notion notheless.

I'm sorry, what? That is, the Red Army in the winter of 1941-42 pushed the Romanians away from Moscow? You are saying something stupid, I do not know what you are based on, but it looks like you’re a hard-core German lover, maybe you also share the views of the German propaganda? Well, there the German soldier is stronger than 10 Soviet soldiers, the wunderwaffe, the Mongol hordes that the corpses reached Berlin??
AlbertN
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by AlbertN »

I believe that has nothing to do with City, Artillery, Talinn or else.
Where the HQ was compared to Talinn?
Because the massive drop of CV of the division defending Talinn to me is justifiable only if the HQ (already in the hands of a poor commander) was the hell away from Talinn (ie, over 5 hexes of distance). So pratically the wider and broader majority of the elements fail their morale / initiative / whatnot test en mass, and the Soviet unit is pratically ... useless in defending the City.

That's pure game mechanic knowledge. Then if you say that your HQ was stacked in Talinn, it may be another tale but that leader iirc is one of the 2-3 stat guys!
ShaggyHiK
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by ShaggyHiK »

To which I will answer you that the troops are not so dependent on their leader. He does not control each of his soldiers individually. In fact, this is the task of sergeants and lentenants below the chain of command. In fact, the division is divided into regiments, regiments into battalions and battalions into companies and companies into platoons. And in fact, we can talk about the combat independence of troops up to the level of a company, and in some cases up to a platoon. If the commander is not close, but even so, the headquarters of the 8th Army was in Tallinn itself.
ShaggyHiK
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by ShaggyHiK »

The answer is that there are only 569 combat-ready men in a 10k division. The rest are damaged elements and do not take part in the battle, which again is not a realistic scenario. What prevents people who have been wounded from being withdrawn to the rear, and those who are still able to be useful in battle with light wounds to be brought together in a weighty combat platoons?
Gam3r
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Gam3r »

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The battle for Tallinn takes place on turn 3, the power ratio is 1.2 to 1 and the city is taken.

The reason behind this is that devs setup individual unit str. based upon outcome of a entire summer campaighn.

Axis won with a score of 10 to 1 in summer? So we setup axis units to be a 10 times stronger than soviets.

But they won not bcs of individual units str, but by a clever encirclements.

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?
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Seminole
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by Seminole »

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?

I have always been a little bothered by how promptly isolated forces turn into offensive kittens even when supplied.
To the extent they’re supplied and rallied you should be able to throw them effectively against the inside of pockets.
Now it just feels like an exercise in fatigue generation for doomed units.

Perhaps the isolation effect of ammo conservation should be a readiness option: Ready / Reserve / Refit (Conserve)- replace Refit for isolated units since it’s unavailable anyway?

"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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DesertedFox
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RE: The Soviet Union has no playability now

Post by DesertedFox »

ORIGINAL: Seminole

ORIGINAL: Gam3r

In fact, there is a numerous cases when encircled soviet armies can achieve a breaktrough from INSIDE the pocket and get some of their divs out.

In game all encircled units became useless despite never participating in combat. Units in pocket should not be considered pocketed on the first turn, bcs they made flanking attack on a units that actually still try to pocket them. Players playing on the same week right?

I have always been a little bothered by how promptly isolated forces turn into offensive kittens even when supplied.
To the extent they’re supplied and rallied you should be able to throw them effectively against the inside of pockets.
Now it just feels like an exercise in fatigue generation for doomed units.

Perhaps the isolation effect of ammo conservation should be a readiness option: Ready / Reserve / Refit (Conserve)- replace Refit for isolated units since it’s unavailable anyway?


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