Questions Comments Elsenborn Ridge Scenario

[Jagger2002]

For my 2nd playing of Elsenborn Ridge Scenario, I swapped sides to play the Germans.

I noticed the 3rd PzGr Div Aufklarung battalion infantry is composed of volksgrenadiers. Is that intentional?

Also I noticed the 3rd Pzgr Div regiments are split with one battalion containing Pzgr infantry and the other containing regular infantry. I was wondering why all infantry within Pzgr battalions wouldn't be considered panzergrenadiers? Any difference in equipment or tactical organization? Just checked and same thing with the 12th SS panzergrenadiers.

When the 3rd PzGrenadier Division arrived, it was not in march mode. Should it be in march mode? Is it doable to have reinforcements arrive in march mode?

Facing one of the light tank US recon battalions, one battalion suffered heavy losses and ended up displaying the M-8 Scott as the counter vehicle silhouette. The M-8 shading around the silhouette was white instead of the standard shading.

Elsenborn Ridge scenario is a very good scenario played either as the US or the Germans. Although a little harder as the Germans. Hard fight from start to finish. Both sides were a lot of fun to play.

PS: The arrival of the 3rd PzGrenadier Division is not listed in the Briefing section as an arriving German reinforcement.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

For my 2nd playing of Elsenborn Ridge Scenario, I swapped sides to play the Germans.

I noticed the 3rd PzGr Div Aufklarung battalion infantry is composed of volksgrenadiers. Is that intentional?

Also I noticed the 3rd Pzgr Div regiments are split with one battalion containing Pzgr infantry and the other containing regular infantry. I was wondering why all infantry within Pzgr battalions wouldn't be considered panzergrenadiers? Any difference in equipment or tactical organization? Just checked and same thing with the 12th SS panzergrenadiers.

When the 3rd PzGrenadier Division arrived, it was not in march mode. Should it be in march mode? Is it doable to have reinforcements arrive in march mode?

Facing one of the light tank US recon battalions, one battalion suffered heavy losses and ended up displaying the M-8 Scott as the counter vehicle silhouette. The M-8 shading around the silhouette was white instead of the standard shading.

Elsenborn Ridge scenario is a very good scenario played either as the US or the Germans. Although a little harder as the Germans. Hard fight from start to finish. Both sides were a lot of fun to play.

PS: The arrival of the 3rd PzGrenadier Division is not listed in the Briefing section as an arriving German reinforcement.

a) Which beta version are you using? The silhouette for the trooptypes in question were fixed
b) Note, the 2nd Bn of a PzGren.Rgt was motorised, not mechanised. So, it's basically just lorry borne infantry
c) Which version of Elsenborn ridge?
d) The AI did not used the 102nd Cav.Grp in the North for offensive actions? In my case it always does very aggressively, pushing towards Gemünd.

Klink, Oberst

[Jagger2002]

I started with the earliest patch but yesterday I installed the latest patch 100.05 and finished the game. The silhouette problem was in both versions.

I asked the question on the motorized vs mechanized infantry because the PzGr infantry is substantially more powerful in game terms than regular infantry. In terms of off road mobility, defensive survivability and firepower, the halftrack is superior to trucks but both basically serve the same purpose. They are both methods of transportation. And once passengers are offloaded, they are both fighting infantry. My expectations are that panzergrenadiers should be more effective than regular infantry due to motivation, morale, tactics, equipment, supply, organization and leadership, etc. I would expect those superior factors to be uniform within a panzer/pzgr division vs a VG or regular infantry organization. Those factors would be independent of mode of transportation which should result in higher quality infantry throughout the org. However there may be other factors considered by the designer resulting in the different types of infantry and that is what I was wondering about.

I started Elsenborn with the first patch and finished with the latest. The scenario version is 1.0c.

And yes, the AI attacked very aggressively with the 102nd Cav Group. I had difficulty slowing them down and sent two scratch units as reinforcements to prevent a complete breakout. Not enough Volksgrenadiers around Monschau to stop them and I split both VG battalions for numbers. Delay was the best I was able to do. However I did get a major victory in the scenario but it was a victory in the south with the 12ss as the major player.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

I started with the earliest patch but yesterday I installed the latest patch 100.05 and finished the game. The silhouette problem was in both versions.

I asked the question on the motorized vs mechanized infantry because the PzGr infantry is substantially more powerful in game terms than regular infantry. In terms of off road mobility, defensive survivability and firepower, the halftrack is superior to trucks but both basically serve the same purpose. They are both methods of transportation. And once passengers are offloaded, they are both fighting infantry. My expectations are that panzergrenadiers should be more effective than regular infantry due to motivation, morale, tactics, equipment, supply, organization and leadership, etc. I would expect those superior factors to be uniform within a panzer/pzgr division vs a VG or regular infantry organization. Those factors would be independent of mode of transportation which should result in higher quality infantry throughout the org. However there may be other factors considered by the designer resulting in the different types of infantry and that is what I was wondering about.

I started Elsenborn with the first patch and finished with the latest. The scenario version is 1.0c.

And yes, the AI attacked very aggressively with the 102nd Cav Group. I had difficulty slowing them down and sent two scratch units as reinforcements to prevent a complete breakout. Not enough Volksgrenadiers around Monschau to stop them and I split both VG battalions for numbers. Delay was the best I was able to do. However I did get a major victory in the scenario but it was a victory in the south with the 12ss as the major player.

Like with the FschJg units, were during the alpha-testing we decided to name the conscripted FschJg (which in many cases were just LwFld and even KM personal!) just Jäger, the Panzergrenadiers of late 1944 were mostly just PzGren by name, not being trained or experienced in combat with armoured personal carrier. So yes, the reason to just motorise standard infantry (most of them just scraped together from destroyed units or the Ersatzheer) makes sense. After Falaise in the West or Bargration in the East, the former 'elite' or 'crack' units were just shadows of themselves. Interestingly enough though, most wargamers tend to see everything W-SS or FschJg as elite, which they weren't really anymore after they conscripted personal of dubious quality from 1943 onwards. I'd even argue, that the quality of at least 2 VG.Div were better than the FschJg.Div or W-SS at the Ardennes.

Just my 2c from my scenario design, military history research experience.

Klink, Oberst

[nikdav]

You are right, i made a wrong white shadow in the M8Scott, fixed in next patch !

The quality of 3.Pz.Grenadier Division is low and many men are only ex Luftwaffe ground troops !
For 15 dec.44 we had:
Ration Strenght 11.442 men but Kampfstarke only 4.600 men !

In december received 1.707 ex luftwaffe/kriegsmarine men and other 1.750 till 15 jan.45
but from 15 dec to 15 jan had more than 4.200 casualties.

Davide

[nikdav]

Updated next Elsenborn scenario version:
- Added a Sicherung Regiment to LXVII Korps;
- With new basic library v.44 feature, deploy the 3.Pz.Gren.Division on map near Gemund (avaiable turn9 but active if enemy at 3 hexes)!

Davide

[Oberst_Klink]

+1

I hope you also like my idea of German road block aka Straßensperre. Still not sure what they should compose; maybe Volkssturm or rear area as well?

In wich table can I find that feature about early activation?

Klink, Oberst

[nikdav]

Perhaps too strong !
pak75 and pioniere are few and precious (Model forbidden use of Pioniere in combat) !
I like the idea but with no more than 50 volksturm/sicherung, perhaps 1/2 pak37 or 50 or Pzschreck, eventually you can reinforce with any weapons from HQ or from retreating units (also one "damaged" panzer/stug)!

[Oberst_Klink]

Will do some further testing.

Klink, Oberst

[Jagger2002]

Thanks for the responses. I think the sicherung should help with that northern part of the field. And good to hear the M-8 Scott is fixed.