I have played a little SP1 PBeM about 3 years ago and have recently acquired SPWaW 7.1
I would be intrested in starting a game or two but nothing too big at least until I get the hang of things, daily turns should be no problem.
I look forward to hearing from you all.
stewart.raynor@ntlworld.com
Ralph.
New to SPWaW Looking for Opponent
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
I can't believe it!!!
A new forum member, and Viking #2 hasn't picked up the challenge! And we know he's waiting for a turn from Jess (and may have to wait for a few hundred posts yet)
I'll have a go, R@lphy, babe.
This is the first time I've tried to pick up a soliciting PBEM. What would you like?
Say: version 7.1
Size around 2500 points (not too big for you?)
Meeting engagement
Ger v Russ Jun '42
10% arty (not counting AT guns)
No prelaid mines
Random map
C&C off; all else on.
Happy to negotiate other conditions.
I'll have a go, R@lphy, babe.
This is the first time I've tried to pick up a soliciting PBEM. What would you like?
Say: version 7.1
Size around 2500 points (not too big for you?)
Meeting engagement
Ger v Russ Jun '42
10% arty (not counting AT guns)
No prelaid mines
Random map
C&C off; all else on.
Happy to negotiate other conditions.
CHRIS
I accept
Hi Kokoda,
This is my first time soliciting, hope I can give you a decent game.
Your suggestion sounds fine to me do you want to set it up you can take pick of sides.
Only one question, does 10% artillery mean 10% of points value or number of units?
Looking forward to it,
Ralph.
This is my first time soliciting, hope I can give you a decent game.
Your suggestion sounds fine to me do you want to set it up you can take pick of sides.
Only one question, does 10% artillery mean 10% of points value or number of units?
Looking forward to it,
Ralph.
R@lph
Good question, there's a lot of variation in interpretation on that point.
I mean 10% value of points, but I don't count AT guns as arty, even though they are found in the arty section of the picklist. I also don't count 'organic' rapid response (small) mortars that are part of a unit organisation. Many would disagree with me on the last point.
10% of units; now that conjures up some interesting ideas - 500 snipers and 50 150mm btns...and maybe a jeep to pick up the VH (I don't think snipers can).
Don't worry about the 'can you give me a good game' stuff. I''m not very experienced (well let me be honest, I'm not very good, and I can use lack of experience as an excuse). But if I can share some tips I'll be happy to.
Ill get a turn to you tonight ( my time - GMT plus 10 hrs). I'm a bit pressed this morning.
OK??
ps - I like 'R@lph', although the best one I've seen is Da5id (Neal Stevenson)
I mean 10% value of points, but I don't count AT guns as arty, even though they are found in the arty section of the picklist. I also don't count 'organic' rapid response (small) mortars that are part of a unit organisation. Many would disagree with me on the last point.
10% of units; now that conjures up some interesting ideas - 500 snipers and 50 150mm btns...and maybe a jeep to pick up the VH (I don't think snipers can).
Don't worry about the 'can you give me a good game' stuff. I''m not very experienced (well let me be honest, I'm not very good, and I can use lack of experience as an excuse). But if I can share some tips I'll be happy to.
Ill get a turn to you tonight ( my time - GMT plus 10 hrs). I'm a bit pressed this morning.
OK??
ps - I like 'R@lph', although the best one I've seen is Da5id (Neal Stevenson)
CHRIS
That sounds fine to me and I agree with your points about AT guns and mortars included in with the unit. Also 10% of the points value is easy to work out.
Do you try to balance the forces and make them as realistic as possible I played against a guy once who's entire armour was made up of wolverines!
In case you were wondering I am in the UK
R@lph.
Do you try to balance the forces and make them as realistic as possible I played against a guy once who's entire armour was made up of wolverines!
In case you were wondering I am in the UK
R@lph.
Realism - what is that??
There are huge debates about what is realistic in SPWAW - and one going on at the moment "What is Gamey".
I would tend to buy in company-sized units, so the structure is relatively 'realistic', and to get a combined arms force. This may be a bit limited at only 2500 pts, but I promise I won't buy all wolverines (nasty smelly things!), either as Germany or Russia(!??!). Most of the experienced players on the forum would wet themselves with delight if an opponent chose such an unbalanced force - even if they were Tigers, not wolverines.
I think you'll find my selection reasonably balanced, but I'm no expert on what real commanders in real battles have to contend with.
If you have any comments on my selection raise the 'time out' flag and we could start again. I don't think you'll have any problems, though. I don't want to be the subject of stories that go..."Once I had an opponent who....(insert any weird tactic, and snort derisively)".
I should warn you though - I don't buy many field dressing stations, mess tents or tank recovery units in an attempt to achieve realism. I do tend to buy things that will kill other things.
I can lose quite effectively with a 'standard' combined arms force.
CHRIS
I would tend to buy in company-sized units, so the structure is relatively 'realistic', and to get a combined arms force. This may be a bit limited at only 2500 pts, but I promise I won't buy all wolverines (nasty smelly things!), either as Germany or Russia(!??!). Most of the experienced players on the forum would wet themselves with delight if an opponent chose such an unbalanced force - even if they were Tigers, not wolverines.
I think you'll find my selection reasonably balanced, but I'm no expert on what real commanders in real battles have to contend with.
If you have any comments on my selection raise the 'time out' flag and we could start again. I don't think you'll have any problems, though. I don't want to be the subject of stories that go..."Once I had an opponent who....(insert any weird tactic, and snort derisively)".
I should warn you though - I don't buy many field dressing stations, mess tents or tank recovery units in an attempt to achieve realism. I do tend to buy things that will kill other things.
I can lose quite effectively with a 'standard' combined arms force.
CHRIS
CHRIS
Excuse me.
Excuse me for butting in. I'd just like to ask your opinion as you are both new to PBEM. Please read the following and let us know if this does anything to clarify playing PBEM or if it makes too many restictions. We'll not discuss the Real life vs Game life issue.
GARY TATRO MOUNTS HIS SOAP BOX AHHM AHHM
In an effort to educate not to infuriate I will now advise all the players of WC2003 of some of the weeknesses of SPWAW 7.1 and give my pledge!
SPWAW has many weeknesses as a game, but if you choose to play within a set of rules that are honorable and reasonable you can have the best and most enjoyable turn base strategy wargame playing of your life. In an effort to further this goal I will now talk about all the things I have learned by accident, fiddleing, testing, or had done to me over the last two years of playing. I am going to put them in two catagories ones that I do and ones that I never do.
Ones I Never do!
1) PRE-DEPLOYMENT BOMBARDMENT: During deployment if you are the first player and have purchased your units and have received back your opponets turn and you go into the deployment screen you can say done and exit out, the game will then run the pre-turn 1 bombardment. If you opponent has ploted for .0 you will see where all his artillary shots will land. Then you can reload the turn and place your units in spots where his artillary did not land.
.......Way to avoid this: As player two plot your artillary during deployment for 1.0 delay. Your artillary will land after player 1 has moved but before you move. You still get in that first round of devistating fire. You just have to judge where your opponet will be.
2) RELOADING: This is where you reload the turn after you have played it the first time because your sneaky opponent set up a great trap and you fell into it. Now on the second try you cleverly avoid the trap.
.......Way to avoid this: No way hope your opponent is honorable and can deal with losing a game or two. If your opponet is always avoiding your traps this might raise a concern.
3) FAST ARTILLERY ON: By turning your fast artillary on you make it imposible for your opponent to see where you artillary is landing. Thus he has no idea in determining which way to move his troops away from the deadly fire. Or if he is moving his troop right underneath the fire. Craters might give you an idea but not all artillary makes craters. The suppression of your troops will tell you but will not help you in the decision on where to move to avoid the fire.
......Way this can be avoided is by asking your opponent to turn fast artillary off.
4) MOVE AND SHOT HEAVY FLAK: This is where all heavy flak of all nations can be picked up, moved and shot in the same turn. This makes these units extreamly deadly (and in my opinion unfair). The reason I think this is unfair and unrealistic is that MG's and ATG can not do this.
......Way this can be avoided, make a house rule. Though in the future this is going to be corrected with an OOB change.
5) DIFFERENT VERSION: This is where your opponent is playing with a older version than 7.1. This can be a big problem because in some of the older versions you could do many things that are not allowed in 7.1.
.......Way to avoid this, ask your opponent what version they are playing with. There are many different OOB's for version 7.1 so do not be supprised if you are playing with the same version but still get OOB violation messages.
6) SAVED GAME FAILED TO LOAD: This is where your opponent fails to wait an appropriate amount of time before exciting from the game and the game fails to save correctly. Now this could be an accident, but if this is happening every 2 to 3 turns your opponent might be doing it on purpose to get a allowed replay.
......Way to avoid this, very simply inform your opponent that they need to count to 10 slowly after they end their turn before exciting from the game. I ussually get up and get a drink or go to the bathroom, kiss the wife, ect, ect.
7) REQUESTING REINFORCEMENTS ON TURN 1: This is where your opponent requests reinforcemtents on turn 1 then refuses engagment until his AUX units get to the front then overwelms you with superior numerical forces.
.......Ways to avoid this, suggest a designated time before reiforcements can be requested. My rule of thumb ussually is not to request reinforcements until I need them, but to lay a ground rule I have started asking for no reinforcements until turn 10.
8) GAMING: This is where you buy specific units that in mass quanities are unstopable and would be completely unrealistic in the real life during WWII. Now I am not talking about purchasing the best infantry unit, tank unit, and artillary available to you. Everyone does this. What I am talking about is purchasing 400 bycle units or MC units and then rolling over your opponent who just does not have enough opportunity fires to stop that kind of charge.
......Ways to avoid this: I have requested reinforcements to specifically counter my opponents one sided purchases, but ussually I just beg off playing with him again afte I lose.
Things i do do sometimes
9) FOR ALL OF YOU RARITY THUMPERS OUT THERE: The object of rartity on is to try to keep your opponent from purchasing unbalanced forces. Like playing the British in 40's with all Matilda's. The way the system works is that you get to purchase cetain items if they are available. Once you make your purchase the game randomly determines if they are unavailable based on the rarity level. Well as player # 1 you can start a game and make your purchases, if you do not get what you want then you can restart the game and try your purchases again, you can keep doing this until you get the force composition you want.
Now as player 2 it is even eaiser. When you load the game and go into the purchase screen you make your purchases and if you don't get what you want you just hit the escape key. SPWAW goes back out ot the load game screen then you load the game again and try your purchases again and again until you get the force composition you want.
......Ways to avoid this just don't play with rarity(I hate the rarity setting I think that it is rediculous). Agree to purchase well balanced forces. If a certain time period give a certain country an unfair advantage adjust the points or agree to a limit to those specific units (Matilda's, PantherG UHU's, Rangers). Or agree to not do the previously mentioned things and stick with your original purchase.
10 TARGETING THE ARTILLARY PARK: This is where the artillary leaves a smoke residue, waving a flag saying here I am, here I am and then ploting counter artillary battery fire for that location. Poof you opponent is without his artillary for 3-4 turns. Now you just plot one or two mortors to hit it every turn and poof you have just nullified 10% of your opponents assets (extreamly valueable assets at that since it is almost imposible to perform combined arms actions without artillary)
.....Ways to avoid this: Have your opponet agree to not target the artillary park until he has a unit that is within line of sight of it. Yeah right (trust me no one every agrees to this). So here is what I do. I purchase extra small recon units and some MC units and during set up, then I review them during deployment. I then take them and place the ones with 4 smoke ammo around my backfield and have them lay smoke on turn 1. Also you can get trucks or mobil artillary(though much more expensive) and shoot and scoot. Problem is you need to break it up into two groups to get continuous per turn fire or you end up skiping every other turn. Big advantage to your opponent.
Things I do almost every game
11) 10% ARTILLARY LIMIT: Talk about confusion and misunderstandings. Well this limit has to be the biggest one. What I believe this should be is a limit in points on mortors, howitzers, rockets, mobil artillary, and off board artillary. This does not include 50mm mortors, but does include everything 60mm and above and does include mortors that come with companies of infantry.
This does not include forward observers.
This does not include ammo depots.
This does not include the one infantry squad that comes with the battery of mortors.
This does not include AA or SPAA.
This does not include ATG or Infantry Guns.
JUST ARTILLARY.
......Ways to avoid this confusion. A good definition of what is and isn't included in the 10% limit.
12) DELETING UNITS OUT OF YOUR PURCHASE SCREEN: Many times while purchasing a company/army of units the company will have some of the units that I want and some units that I do not want. I will keep the units I want and delete the others from purchase que getting back valuable purchase points to buy other things. A prime example would be the purchases of a MECH SS Company(it comes with 2 mobil artillary pieces), well I have already purchased all the artillary I can per the 10% limit so now I go in and delete them out of the que. Anothe example would be the Purchase of a Russian Recon Company. Well I don't want though's terrible T70 Recon tanks they suck so I delete them out of my purchase que.
......Ways to avoid this: Tell me that you want to agree to no deleting out of the purchase que. Ok I will agree. No problem.
Well that is it and here is my pledge I will not do any of the tactics I mentioned in number 1-8 and if my opponets want me to I will agree to terms on number 9-12. I feel strongly that a game without honor is wasted hours of my life and torture for the soul.
I remember a not so good movie I watched about a year ago, it had one good line in it that I always remembered.
Honor is Man's Gift to Himself.
Gary Tatro Steps off his Soap Box
The one thing that I can think of to add is the practice of renaming units to confuse or mislead yout opponent. I believe the general consensus is that you may rename for convience (broken or out of ammo) or if the game's naming of a unit gives away too much info but not to deliberately mislead an opponent into beliving he is facing something that he is not. i.e. naming 150mm artillery as 81mm mortars, misleads. Naming a StuG to be a 75mmPak40 until it is spotted is ok because its basically an ATG mounted on a chassis. Or stacking 6 jeeps in a hex with a tank and naming them all the same name so that proper tageting is impossible, misleads. Most players won't bother with this as it takes too much time and its hard to remember all of what you have changed.
GARY TATRO MOUNTS HIS SOAP BOX AHHM AHHM
In an effort to educate not to infuriate I will now advise all the players of WC2003 of some of the weeknesses of SPWAW 7.1 and give my pledge!
SPWAW has many weeknesses as a game, but if you choose to play within a set of rules that are honorable and reasonable you can have the best and most enjoyable turn base strategy wargame playing of your life. In an effort to further this goal I will now talk about all the things I have learned by accident, fiddleing, testing, or had done to me over the last two years of playing. I am going to put them in two catagories ones that I do and ones that I never do.
Ones I Never do!
1) PRE-DEPLOYMENT BOMBARDMENT: During deployment if you are the first player and have purchased your units and have received back your opponets turn and you go into the deployment screen you can say done and exit out, the game will then run the pre-turn 1 bombardment. If you opponent has ploted for .0 you will see where all his artillary shots will land. Then you can reload the turn and place your units in spots where his artillary did not land.
.......Way to avoid this: As player two plot your artillary during deployment for 1.0 delay. Your artillary will land after player 1 has moved but before you move. You still get in that first round of devistating fire. You just have to judge where your opponet will be.
2) RELOADING: This is where you reload the turn after you have played it the first time because your sneaky opponent set up a great trap and you fell into it. Now on the second try you cleverly avoid the trap.
.......Way to avoid this: No way hope your opponent is honorable and can deal with losing a game or two. If your opponet is always avoiding your traps this might raise a concern.
3) FAST ARTILLERY ON: By turning your fast artillary on you make it imposible for your opponent to see where you artillary is landing. Thus he has no idea in determining which way to move his troops away from the deadly fire. Or if he is moving his troop right underneath the fire. Craters might give you an idea but not all artillary makes craters. The suppression of your troops will tell you but will not help you in the decision on where to move to avoid the fire.
......Way this can be avoided is by asking your opponent to turn fast artillary off.
4) MOVE AND SHOT HEAVY FLAK: This is where all heavy flak of all nations can be picked up, moved and shot in the same turn. This makes these units extreamly deadly (and in my opinion unfair). The reason I think this is unfair and unrealistic is that MG's and ATG can not do this.
......Way this can be avoided, make a house rule. Though in the future this is going to be corrected with an OOB change.
5) DIFFERENT VERSION: This is where your opponent is playing with a older version than 7.1. This can be a big problem because in some of the older versions you could do many things that are not allowed in 7.1.
.......Way to avoid this, ask your opponent what version they are playing with. There are many different OOB's for version 7.1 so do not be supprised if you are playing with the same version but still get OOB violation messages.
6) SAVED GAME FAILED TO LOAD: This is where your opponent fails to wait an appropriate amount of time before exciting from the game and the game fails to save correctly. Now this could be an accident, but if this is happening every 2 to 3 turns your opponent might be doing it on purpose to get a allowed replay.
......Way to avoid this, very simply inform your opponent that they need to count to 10 slowly after they end their turn before exciting from the game. I ussually get up and get a drink or go to the bathroom, kiss the wife, ect, ect.
7) REQUESTING REINFORCEMENTS ON TURN 1: This is where your opponent requests reinforcemtents on turn 1 then refuses engagment until his AUX units get to the front then overwelms you with superior numerical forces.
.......Ways to avoid this, suggest a designated time before reiforcements can be requested. My rule of thumb ussually is not to request reinforcements until I need them, but to lay a ground rule I have started asking for no reinforcements until turn 10.
8) GAMING: This is where you buy specific units that in mass quanities are unstopable and would be completely unrealistic in the real life during WWII. Now I am not talking about purchasing the best infantry unit, tank unit, and artillary available to you. Everyone does this. What I am talking about is purchasing 400 bycle units or MC units and then rolling over your opponent who just does not have enough opportunity fires to stop that kind of charge.
......Ways to avoid this: I have requested reinforcements to specifically counter my opponents one sided purchases, but ussually I just beg off playing with him again afte I lose.
Things i do do sometimes
9) FOR ALL OF YOU RARITY THUMPERS OUT THERE: The object of rartity on is to try to keep your opponent from purchasing unbalanced forces. Like playing the British in 40's with all Matilda's. The way the system works is that you get to purchase cetain items if they are available. Once you make your purchase the game randomly determines if they are unavailable based on the rarity level. Well as player # 1 you can start a game and make your purchases, if you do not get what you want then you can restart the game and try your purchases again, you can keep doing this until you get the force composition you want.
Now as player 2 it is even eaiser. When you load the game and go into the purchase screen you make your purchases and if you don't get what you want you just hit the escape key. SPWAW goes back out ot the load game screen then you load the game again and try your purchases again and again until you get the force composition you want.
......Ways to avoid this just don't play with rarity(I hate the rarity setting I think that it is rediculous). Agree to purchase well balanced forces. If a certain time period give a certain country an unfair advantage adjust the points or agree to a limit to those specific units (Matilda's, PantherG UHU's, Rangers). Or agree to not do the previously mentioned things and stick with your original purchase.
10 TARGETING THE ARTILLARY PARK: This is where the artillary leaves a smoke residue, waving a flag saying here I am, here I am and then ploting counter artillary battery fire for that location. Poof you opponent is without his artillary for 3-4 turns. Now you just plot one or two mortors to hit it every turn and poof you have just nullified 10% of your opponents assets (extreamly valueable assets at that since it is almost imposible to perform combined arms actions without artillary)
.....Ways to avoid this: Have your opponet agree to not target the artillary park until he has a unit that is within line of sight of it. Yeah right (trust me no one every agrees to this). So here is what I do. I purchase extra small recon units and some MC units and during set up, then I review them during deployment. I then take them and place the ones with 4 smoke ammo around my backfield and have them lay smoke on turn 1. Also you can get trucks or mobil artillary(though much more expensive) and shoot and scoot. Problem is you need to break it up into two groups to get continuous per turn fire or you end up skiping every other turn. Big advantage to your opponent.
Things I do almost every game
11) 10% ARTILLARY LIMIT: Talk about confusion and misunderstandings. Well this limit has to be the biggest one. What I believe this should be is a limit in points on mortors, howitzers, rockets, mobil artillary, and off board artillary. This does not include 50mm mortors, but does include everything 60mm and above and does include mortors that come with companies of infantry.
This does not include forward observers.
This does not include ammo depots.
This does not include the one infantry squad that comes with the battery of mortors.
This does not include AA or SPAA.
This does not include ATG or Infantry Guns.
JUST ARTILLARY.
......Ways to avoid this confusion. A good definition of what is and isn't included in the 10% limit.
12) DELETING UNITS OUT OF YOUR PURCHASE SCREEN: Many times while purchasing a company/army of units the company will have some of the units that I want and some units that I do not want. I will keep the units I want and delete the others from purchase que getting back valuable purchase points to buy other things. A prime example would be the purchases of a MECH SS Company(it comes with 2 mobil artillary pieces), well I have already purchased all the artillary I can per the 10% limit so now I go in and delete them out of the que. Anothe example would be the Purchase of a Russian Recon Company. Well I don't want though's terrible T70 Recon tanks they suck so I delete them out of my purchase que.
......Ways to avoid this: Tell me that you want to agree to no deleting out of the purchase que. Ok I will agree. No problem.
Well that is it and here is my pledge I will not do any of the tactics I mentioned in number 1-8 and if my opponets want me to I will agree to terms on number 9-12. I feel strongly that a game without honor is wasted hours of my life and torture for the soul.
I remember a not so good movie I watched about a year ago, it had one good line in it that I always remembered.
Honor is Man's Gift to Himself.
Gary Tatro Steps off his Soap Box
The one thing that I can think of to add is the practice of renaming units to confuse or mislead yout opponent. I believe the general consensus is that you may rename for convience (broken or out of ammo) or if the game's naming of a unit gives away too much info but not to deliberately mislead an opponent into beliving he is facing something that he is not. i.e. naming 150mm artillery as 81mm mortars, misleads. Naming a StuG to be a 75mmPak40 until it is spotted is ok because its basically an ATG mounted on a chassis. Or stacking 6 jeeps in a hex with a tank and naming them all the same name so that proper tageting is impossible, misleads. Most players won't bother with this as it takes too much time and its hard to remember all of what you have changed.
" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"POGO
Still don't agree with the smoke from the Arty park thing, another tactic. Use one arty turn to lay several smoke screens in you back areas. Then move under them later or deticate two moble mortars 81mm or 60mm to lay smoke directly. Your opponent will have too many targets to shoot at.
If your really sneaky ( I have used this one several times ) lay smoke that looks like a arty units signature then, put very cheap infantry units under the smoke when your opponets hits it he will see casualties coming from those hits. You can bet he will keep pounding that spot, now he is directing his arty in a totally usless venture while not supporting his attacks or limiting your attacks. ( Note this only work in 7.1 )
If your really sneaky ( I have used this one several times ) lay smoke that looks like a arty units signature then, put very cheap infantry units under the smoke when your opponets hits it he will see casualties coming from those hits. You can bet he will keep pounding that spot, now he is directing his arty in a totally usless venture while not supporting his attacks or limiting your attacks. ( Note this only work in 7.1 )
PBbEM rules
Very useful post Buzzard 45. I must go to work v soon (to support my habit) so I can't reply in detail, but here's my two bob's worth.
I have two general principles that I tend to keep in the back of my mind...
A 'In the spirit of honourable warfare', and
B 'They're not just pixels to me'
A The first stops many of the 'cheating' tactics. Opinions may differ on what constitutes cheating, but most (replaying turns by reload etc ) are so obvious that nobody could defend these as legitimate.
I hadn't picked up the 'Fast artillery on' scam, but I always like to use 'off' anyway. I have, on occasions, hit the 'end turn', not 'play later' button, and started to see the artillery fall. I walk away and come back in 5 mins. I will reload in these circumstances, but let my opponent know I'm doing so. You gain some minor advantage, but there's a choice in this case, abandon the game, or trust your opponent.
Sometimes we get "saved game failed to load" and we both try to replay the turn exactly as we did originally. Most recently we played Milton's farm, and he destroyed one of my Stuarts the first time, but not the second . I didn't think of it at the time, but had he asked me, I would have not used it in the game any more.
I have called reinforcements early in the game (before I'd heard of the Turn 1 scam). It irritated my opponent, and he told me in no uncertain terms about the turn 10 rule. Our relationship survived, and I think he'd still give me a game (pbh?). I think it was about turn 7, and he had clearly thrashed me. It wasn't turn 10 (must be more flexible than this) but it was a genuine call for reinforcements from a beleagured commander, not a device to game the game. He won the 'draw' that resulted, and went on to win the Australian PBEM championship.
It's like golf. You can kick your ball out to a better lie, but you're only fooling yourself. And to appeal to the morally bankrupt...Some day, someone will see you anyway, and not play any more.
I know my regular opponent always uses the same password!!!
Perhaps I have a perverted excess of self respect...
B "Not just pixels" is about trying to imagine whether the men would have done what I ask them to. This covers the 'recon by death', and 'mineclearing by suicide' tactics.
"Sgt Baker, I think there may be a platoon of SS in the woods over there, with their range set to 1. We can't see them, but if you drive your truck into the woods I'll be able to target my 150's more effectively. If you survive the op fire, you'll probably be routed, and the 150s may not hurt as much"
"Yessir. Will I get a Purple Heart? ...and you'll tell my Mom to look after the Gerbil for me?"
Sure. And before someone tells a story about just that sort of thing happening, I think 'rarity on' would suggest that it would be hard to find a platoonful of those guys. Victoria Crosses are not common.
I think this also applies to some force selection. "General, can I have 500 jeeps with bazookas for my next battle? I know it means that the whole Division would be without inf AT, and light recon...". Yeah sure.
There are so any glitches, bugs and holes in the game that if someone wants to mess about it's not hard. Hells bells, we've been relying on accurate SCORING in the PBEM championships, when we know it is arcane and incomprehensible in the extreme! Games won by 200pts would have to be very doubtful.
In the spirit of honourable warfare...they're not just pixels to me.
So there you go. If anyone wants to cheat I'm your bunny. But I can live with myself.
I have two general principles that I tend to keep in the back of my mind...
A 'In the spirit of honourable warfare', and
B 'They're not just pixels to me'
A The first stops many of the 'cheating' tactics. Opinions may differ on what constitutes cheating, but most (replaying turns by reload etc ) are so obvious that nobody could defend these as legitimate.
I hadn't picked up the 'Fast artillery on' scam, but I always like to use 'off' anyway. I have, on occasions, hit the 'end turn', not 'play later' button, and started to see the artillery fall. I walk away and come back in 5 mins. I will reload in these circumstances, but let my opponent know I'm doing so. You gain some minor advantage, but there's a choice in this case, abandon the game, or trust your opponent.
Sometimes we get "saved game failed to load" and we both try to replay the turn exactly as we did originally. Most recently we played Milton's farm, and he destroyed one of my Stuarts the first time, but not the second . I didn't think of it at the time, but had he asked me, I would have not used it in the game any more.
I have called reinforcements early in the game (before I'd heard of the Turn 1 scam). It irritated my opponent, and he told me in no uncertain terms about the turn 10 rule. Our relationship survived, and I think he'd still give me a game (pbh?). I think it was about turn 7, and he had clearly thrashed me. It wasn't turn 10 (must be more flexible than this) but it was a genuine call for reinforcements from a beleagured commander, not a device to game the game. He won the 'draw' that resulted, and went on to win the Australian PBEM championship.
It's like golf. You can kick your ball out to a better lie, but you're only fooling yourself. And to appeal to the morally bankrupt...Some day, someone will see you anyway, and not play any more.
I know my regular opponent always uses the same password!!!
Perhaps I have a perverted excess of self respect...
B "Not just pixels" is about trying to imagine whether the men would have done what I ask them to. This covers the 'recon by death', and 'mineclearing by suicide' tactics.
"Sgt Baker, I think there may be a platoon of SS in the woods over there, with their range set to 1. We can't see them, but if you drive your truck into the woods I'll be able to target my 150's more effectively. If you survive the op fire, you'll probably be routed, and the 150s may not hurt as much"
"Yessir. Will I get a Purple Heart? ...and you'll tell my Mom to look after the Gerbil for me?"
Sure. And before someone tells a story about just that sort of thing happening, I think 'rarity on' would suggest that it would be hard to find a platoonful of those guys. Victoria Crosses are not common.
I think this also applies to some force selection. "General, can I have 500 jeeps with bazookas for my next battle? I know it means that the whole Division would be without inf AT, and light recon...". Yeah sure.
There are so any glitches, bugs and holes in the game that if someone wants to mess about it's not hard. Hells bells, we've been relying on accurate SCORING in the PBEM championships, when we know it is arcane and incomprehensible in the extreme! Games won by 200pts would have to be very doubtful.
In the spirit of honourable warfare...they're not just pixels to me.
So there you go. If anyone wants to cheat I'm your bunny. But I can live with myself.
CHRIS
HONOUR, but usually not Glory.
I've just twigged to the fact that it was Gary Tatro that posted the 'Rules of Honour', and Buzzard quoted them. So credit to Gary, and to Buzz for alerting us all to it.
Sounds like a reasonable set of rules, but
I still have some issues with the reinforcements rule. Turn 10 might work, but in shorter games (12 -15 turns, say)it basically takes reinforcements from the game. Perhaps half way through, or 10 turns, whichever the lesser. It would be nice to have an agreement that used a "when you're desperate and you really need them" rule, but I can see that interpretation differs. I know that if I played Viking, say, or any of you big guys, that I could claim to be desperate and really need them on turn1!
8-12 I will do too occasionally, but not always.
In the current game with R@lph 'rarity on' meant I couldn't get any On Board arty (for the smoke mainly), but I didn't restart to manipulate the 'rarity'. I lived with off board, and the problems that will cause.
Gary's arty @ 10% definition is broader than mine. I tend to count FO and ammo dump as arty. Ammo dumps certainly increase the effectiveness of arty considerably...although if you are allowed to hit the smoke spotted this makes managing arty much more difficult. I think on balance being able to hit the smoke from firing arty would compensate for the broader definition that Gary uses. Means you have to be pretty nimble with reloads and firing.
I still haven't yet worked out a personal rule to handle the issue of the small mortars attached to infantry companies. Short range (and attached) could be a useful def of 'not arty' - since it means they are close fire support weapons only. Although I expect a good inf commander could make those Jap knee mortars a real asset. The 50mm German ones seem much less devastating. The 60mm US fire for miles and miles...so I tend to see them as arty.
I'll purchase and replace, usually to eg stay within arty limits, or when I've bought scouts elsewhere, and don't need them as attached to a Company. Sometimes when I don't like the crappy parts of a larger unit, as per Gary.
And I can't be bothered renaming units, although I have occasaionally just for amusement or to note out-of-ammo arty. That is, where it doesn't affect the balance of the game.
It would be good to have a generalised set of understandings as Gary has posted, but I don't want to be spending much on lawyers to play a game.
Sounds like a reasonable set of rules, but
I still have some issues with the reinforcements rule. Turn 10 might work, but in shorter games (12 -15 turns, say)it basically takes reinforcements from the game. Perhaps half way through, or 10 turns, whichever the lesser. It would be nice to have an agreement that used a "when you're desperate and you really need them" rule, but I can see that interpretation differs. I know that if I played Viking, say, or any of you big guys, that I could claim to be desperate and really need them on turn1!
8-12 I will do too occasionally, but not always.
In the current game with R@lph 'rarity on' meant I couldn't get any On Board arty (for the smoke mainly), but I didn't restart to manipulate the 'rarity'. I lived with off board, and the problems that will cause.
Gary's arty @ 10% definition is broader than mine. I tend to count FO and ammo dump as arty. Ammo dumps certainly increase the effectiveness of arty considerably...although if you are allowed to hit the smoke spotted this makes managing arty much more difficult. I think on balance being able to hit the smoke from firing arty would compensate for the broader definition that Gary uses. Means you have to be pretty nimble with reloads and firing.
I still haven't yet worked out a personal rule to handle the issue of the small mortars attached to infantry companies. Short range (and attached) could be a useful def of 'not arty' - since it means they are close fire support weapons only. Although I expect a good inf commander could make those Jap knee mortars a real asset. The 50mm German ones seem much less devastating. The 60mm US fire for miles and miles...so I tend to see them as arty.
I'll purchase and replace, usually to eg stay within arty limits, or when I've bought scouts elsewhere, and don't need them as attached to a Company. Sometimes when I don't like the crappy parts of a larger unit, as per Gary.
And I can't be bothered renaming units, although I have occasaionally just for amusement or to note out-of-ammo arty. That is, where it doesn't affect the balance of the game.
It would be good to have a generalised set of understandings as Gary has posted, but I don't want to be spending much on lawyers to play a game.
CHRIS
No response,but...
I think this set of rules that Buzz has posted from Gary is very useful, and could be moved to the 'Training wheels' section. I recall another recent post that set out some arrangements for PBEM. While not all would agree with everything, some issues are pretty uncontroversial and could apply to all PBEM games, while others at least give us 'cannonfodder' an idea of what we have to negotiate. Like a sort of checklist. Poss agreed checklist as a sticky.
Newbie "Oh, I see, so those Naval guns you used aren't counted as artillery? and it was OK to call them as reinforcements on turn1? And I should just ignore the fact that you started your game started 70 times and ended 33 times? OK then, you're the experienced one. "
Not that anybody on the forum would ever do anything like this - but there are sharks out there, less honourable than we are.
Newbie "Oh, I see, so those Naval guns you used aren't counted as artillery? and it was OK to call them as reinforcements on turn1? And I should just ignore the fact that you started your game started 70 times and ended 33 times? OK then, you're the experienced one. "
Not that anybody on the forum would ever do anything like this - but there are sharks out there, less honourable than we are.
CHRIS