A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

[AlbertN]

T59 - New 'concept' of offensive operation

Here I am being sarcastic in the title but that's pretty much what I can do.

3-4 turns to refit and restock and build CCPs with 3 Panzer Divisions. (The one you saw in Smolensk previous turn before to be moved. That last turn I moved AND air resupplied even if well behind my own lines)

Infantry opens up a hole in already a feeble spot (Pretty much 4 German divisions jumped on a single Soviet one), opened up the gap and the 3 panzer divisions and a motorized one from the 3rd Panzergruppe slipped in.

The 3 panzers reached for Sonkovo, hit a Soviet infantry corps of fresh formation I assume (it was only 6-6) and anyhow in clear fields. Still had to deliberate attack it. It had a HQ stacked on it. Then the same division that retreated from the 4 infantries got routed by the panzers.

Losses on my end are minimal there BUT if now I sum up the CV of all 3 panzer divisions I get to 15. Considering the start was 66 roughly. Between fatigue accrued, CCP spent - the operational tempo seems iffy.
If there was just a tiny wee bit of resistance from the Soviet end. And I still expect the pockets to be broken, I feel.

The Soviets will issue some mobile forces with Admin Movement and shank one of the exhausted Panzer Divisions.

@IDGBIA - I personally have not felt the initial Gun Buff Up thing bad. Nor excessive. I've a rather historical vibe of the situation here in general. Simply Stalingrad is traded for Leningrad pretty much. I've some more game bagged I think - even if no PvP game went past the Summer/Autumn '41 except this one, and my courteous and fair opponent is at his first MP game, only with vsAI experience. - Now I admit I cannot safely say it was the 'sweet spot' because there are better players around, and players that play also very differently than I. But I do not think there was either enough testing with the new artilleries - at least testing that I could have read here in terms of AARs - to determine it was imbalanced.

Right now I do not feel this was an intended 'nerf the Germans' - since it factually hits Soviets too. But it translates in that.

Plus there is a LOT of damage and kills that are not seen. As I've learnt above better of the 'Transit Pool', and it seems there is also a 'Disabled Pool' that is mentioned in the manual but there are no specific references to when and how those elements return.

The combat reports unveil in their 'quick perspective' what is factually destroyed right off the bat. (And there is the mysterious button at the bottom of the combat reports to show the 'damaged (destroyed)' stuff that is still alien to me).

So when there was the artillery buff it is not that the Germans were not losing troops but the 'loss' was not evident and manifest. Because it was not that magic number in yellow-orange that pops up, very visible, in your battle report.
The real damage the Germans suffered is damaged things that gets whisked away from units, and sent to the Transit Pool. It is the attrition of troops adjacement to the enemy. It's pretty much under the radar, but it's there.

So ultimately I feel changes were made far too hastily, in a rather quick way (as numbers here shown) when at least for me the ground game seemed definitely closer to be okayish. Without descending in item by item 'does it work'.

The general pulse of the game -to me- (and I underline I cannot speak for MSAG here) felt right. But the best checking out is done through PvP (from my perspective at least, AI does not count for balancing stuff - One can just up 100 to 110 or 120 if they want vs AI) and through a wider base.

Alas I am about to start a new game where I am also the Soviets ... but I suspect it won't be a long lived game in this case due to current patch.

[AlbertN]

T59 - As requested Losses and adding OOBs

German losses may be under the 'historical' perspectives but Soviets I am quite confident are roughly in line.

There is also the depending variable of how players play - and I am inclined to agree MSAG did some summer '41 mistakes that more experienced players would have not done. But he wrote his own perspective in a previous post here in the AAR!

Air Losses are peculiar, but I'll post graphs.

[AlbertN]

T59 - Air Losses Graph

Air activity has been pretty much abysmal on all ends, except some peaks.

From my end during Summer I pretty much just used recon, recon and air supply.
During winter air supply was the only type of mission flown.

We also played with the house rule to not use GroundAttack AD on UNIT target.

MSAG experimented an amount during Summer '41 trying to bomb railyards, and other potential targets - with some minor excursus in the night bombing; before the 'night bombing patch' hit. But he's been very fair and honest and as soon as it came out I was impotent in dealing with night bombing he stopped out of his own volition - which is a very rare case of game-fairness!

We opened up the dances for GroundAttack UNIT once the relevant patch arrived (we use to patch on release of test patches), I for sure bomber Voronhez in the last turns and used ground support much to my dismay.

MSAG left Ground Support up for some of my turns, and used it on his own, so the massive losses of May-June '42.
Right now Ground Support on your opponent turn is just a NO GO due to lack of adequate control.

[AlbertN]

T59 - Here comes the Manpower Graph

I definitely agree the situation of the Axis on the paper seemed good.

But Axis minors are pretty much brittle - and German forces tire and exhaust far too easily.

Even before the artillery nerf I was far from certain to obtain my strategic objectives.

BUT I do agree I was operating across the board pretty much and not just having a localized attack. Even if some of the zones are entirely anemic.

At the same time I still believe in a future game - with the same cards on the table - MSAG will perform way better since this was his first PvP game.

I rest in my case he's not poorly set at all on the map and that the game is well playable based on numbers. I am not sure it may be based on present patch but that's my preliminary opinion on numbers and battles.

Need to do other stuff for a while - so finishing turn later

[AlbertN]

T60 - Russian Offensive

The Soviets proceeded to encircle with a sweeping maneuver 6 Axis divisions. The situation by itself was not dire even without the 6th Army (not far there is a PzKorp of the 1st PanzerArmy that may have intervened and a rested infantry corp to be 'diluted' via regimentation).

I feel the move has been daring if not premature; the Soviets did some air recon but not deep enough and they missed the bulk of the 11th Army marching right there in that direction. And it was known that I had this whole army on the move to get somewhere after Voronhez fall.

It seems there is a potential of counter-encirclement of a few armoured units of the Soviets. I'll have to see what my recon says in turn though.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Encirclement why?

Probably because it is the 'way to go' now. I am still exploring the new patch but the Russians tried two frontal assaults first.

This one is against the Romanian Guard division and a Germany Infantry division. They were not even well rested!

As you can see here the Russian artillery is insignificant despite their 1000 tubes of various type and sorts, and the German artillery is mighty.

MSAG attacked also another hex - with similar effects. I did not even felt the difference of the big river as geographical feature. I'll link the other and will take some moments to explain my perceptions.

Just numbers for Artillery here supposedly the changed stuff.

Though in Summer '42 I'd expect Soviet attacks in general to fail it is hard to get the right vibe.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Encirclement Why continued.

Here as you can see across the board the whole performances.

Now for Infantry Squads, that German Infantry with high experience pretty much shoots at 0.6 when the Soviets '42 squads are at 0.5 - well I feel that iffy considering how many Soviets are around vs how many Germans in general. But that's another story and not very significant.

It's the string of 0.X that the Soviet heavy hitters produce. Or better - the attacker, any attacker heavy hitters - produce.

Nonetheless - I've the perception that in these cases the outcomes are not that far from how they should have gone.

Why? Because the major winter offensive of the Russians was against the Axis minors, and to encircle a German army pretty much sapped of strength / exhausted (besides having been ordered to bunker in and even retreat 'east').

But I believe the fact one has got the bloodied nose here that induced to the encirclement.

As important notion I feel that Artillery is not really 'nerfed'. It is simply shooting way more times when defending - which may be right at conceptual level, especialyl as who attacks can attack from multiple hexes the defender has some benefits as terrain and the fact the enemy must come to them, and not the opposite. But the 'sweet spot' of how much more efficient the defender artillery is ... seems too much. I am not sure if to have a good detection level helps there. But if troops start adjacent one should have a good detection level by default.

Will proceed to explain other things - still via my own deductions through observations.

[Erik Rutins]

I would expect that especially in August 1942, a dug in German defender would certainly get more advantage from artillery than a Soviet attacker. Looks like the vast majority of the guns on the Soviet side were 82mm mortars, 45mm AT guns and 76mm field guns. Most likely they moved some dirt while the defenders were in trenches away from harm, or were uncoordinated, etc. The story can write itself based on the results. The game by design can create a wide range of historically plausible battle results based on all the factors involved, not just equipment, but everything else as well. It's clear here that the Germans also passed most of their checks leader-wise, while the Soviet CV reduced by a lot, suggesting some kind of tactical blunder.

[AlbertN]

Side Explaination

First of all Loki already explained some, in this thread, about the Transit Pool.

I've gone read better and made some research - and I still underline, I am just a user so I do not know of formulas and the like besides that I can see and read in a manual or learn through the game.

Now - here the exerpt of the Manual that I think it is relevant for the case.

[AlbertN]

Explaining Continued

I feel that many people perceived 'This side is hopeless' because all they see are the numbers at the top.
Which is ... the tip of the iceberg.

So people look up there, see 'omg only 300 deads and 4 guns' I'll never make it.
Now if that was Soviet losses - yeah, bogus. Soviets have a bucket of production every turn. The Axis does not work that way.

But what in general goes under the radar are the 'damaged elements'. Which while not destroyed are pretty much knocked out.
As you can see some will end up in the Transit Pool. Some of the manpower from it goes in the Disabled Pool (which are a form of 'temporary casualties - see them as longer term hospitalizations).

Probably some players do not even realize that things get damaged as one moves a unit around. (For anyone who does not know check how many panzers get damaged just by -moving- a unit around. Have a look at its condition and status before and after moving it a few hexes. Do your test in single player, through woods, and / or mud even!).

Because people saw a 'little dead folks' - but pretty much have not seen all the wounded, injured, crippled and disabled folks - there were massive screams of 'This side is unplayable'.

Probably it would be perceived better if in the case of the combat here ... 4 Guns are destroyed and 27 have been damaged (maybe destroyed for good, some could be repaired) and got out of action for now. 301 German soldiers perished in action but ... (32 destroyed, 67 elements damaged) 600ish more were severely wounded.

Does it take another chrome?
Because I feel that component was entirely missed, as some players just focused on the 'orange numbers' that highlights the 'immediately ascertained, definite dead / destroyed stuff'.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Leningrad Tango

I suspect Leningrad will remain firmly held in Russian hands. Or well - I do not know how many stocks they've in there but now that Air Supply is coming in I am very confident I cannot seize the City as the garrison will remain fully operational.

I'll have some long range plane scout the Soviet Airfields, to detect where the Li-2 take off from!

But as the strategic plan was to cut the other railline, I hope to at least put under crisis the present frontline there and seize the ports... Even if ports right now are redundant as 500+ Freight comes via the air.

I just assume the Russians do not have enough to supply adequately the whole garrison, these folks must eat and all!

Edit: Reiterating it is fine though as I feel I had my fair share of non intercepted Air Supply missions over winter right off to the frontlines! This prolly serves MSAG back with interests but it's all good!

[AlbertN]

T60 - 'Cut the rail' Operation Follow up

Here the Soviet counterattacks to liberate their two trapped corps ultimately failed.

I believe a sore point was struck as there was a neat lack of reserves for meaningful attacks as well.

A tired and worn German infantry got retreated by superior forces but follow up attacks fell short. The fresh motorized division that just marched yawned at the Soviet attack and suffered 0 permanent losses and a measly handful of damaged ones. (But that was a full CCP unit that was resting in reserve behind Moscow line and has not fought at all - was just there to help secure the pocket).

A shy attack in the northern line was made, but that too was blunted easily by the German defenders in the wildlands.

System of depots and airbases is being created in case that will turn into a winter line.
Ideally - the Furher would want that, there is a Resource hex there, and resources should be needed for our industries to produce more guns, more ammunitions and whatnot! (I assume they'll just go in stock as by the logistic report there are already enough resources to feed all the factories that Germany has).

[AlbertN]

T60 - The other Soviet attack?

Here air recon too happened, but one of the 'icons' signaling it is right ontop of one of the lurking Panzer Divisions - of which I had a few.

I deliberately choosed not to counterattack - as already explained - in the hope to lure the Soviets further. But whilst they've been bold in the south, here they played wise.

Content of their firsthand victory, they returned to their positions (Or even started to relocate the mobile forces to the new threat north of Moscow).

Soviet defensive numbers in the sector are not really encouraging an attack at all. Khimki has some airplane factories, but it's U2 ... and I am far from sure how useful these planes are in this game!

[AlbertN]

T60 - Caucasus Operations

On a relevant note - the screenshots are before to move anything, as I just got the turn.

Here I am quite satisfied that the encirclement of Krasnodar has not been broken. It seems I am roughly on a historical timetable there, the VP bonus being just a +3 IF I seize it now.

And I am far from sure I can achieve that this turn!

My logistic line there is not exceptional at all - but as Romanians also crossed the Kerch strait and seized a port there, I believe things may turn pinker and that the desired results will be achieved by the end of the summer. Or will it be wishful thinking?

At this stage if I was MSAG I'd probably evacuate the potentially trapped zone because his air-lift is needed for Leningrad, and I can devote some planes there too to interdict ports. But that's just me.

There are only 2 things that I believe are precious enough as intrinsic geographical assets.
The VP city and the Factories / Manpower.

But let's forget of the 'Manpower' because one can lose both the manpower produced in future turns AND the manpower in troops garrisoning there.

Probably I'd take the route to retreat toward the ports and evacuate via sea, at the risk of losing some assets but unless things changed, sea losses are minimal.

[Stamb]

Getting display number of damaged elements in addition to destroyed one on the main battle screen would be awesome.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T60 - 'Cut the rail' Operation Follow up

Here the Soviet counterattacks to liberate their two trapped corps ultimately failed.

I believe a sore point was struck as there was a neat lack of reserves for meaningful attacks as well.

A tired and worn German infantry got retreated by superior forces but follow up attacks fell short. The fresh motorized division that just marched yawned at the Soviet attack and suffered 0 permanent losses and a measly handful of damaged ones. (But that was a full CCP unit that was resting in reserve behind Moscow line and has not fought at all - was just there to help secure the pocket).

A shy attack in the northern line was made, but that too was blunted easily by the German defenders in the wildlands.

System of depots and airbases is being created in case that will turn into a winter line.
Ideally - the Furher would want that, there is a Resource hex there, and resources should be needed for our industries to produce more guns, more ammunitions and whatnot! (I assume they'll just go in stock as by the logistic report there are already enough resources to feed all the factories that Germany has).

...

interesting to see the gains here, Gunulf has done similar and my instinct is it will make a complete mess of attempts to keep the Leningrad/Volkhov forces in supply - so well worth clinging to if you can

[AlbertN]

T60 - How deep are Soviets in trouble?

From my perspective they're not that deep in trouble, they've a hefty gain of troops on the map each turn and we're still in an Axis initiative and offensive phase.

With the hindsight that since the latest patch I can barely do much offensively and that most of the results are due to the bulk of the game being played with 'Artillery Patch' on.

Here the OOBs at the end of my turn (Which is already part of a collage of screenshots at page 3) and the OOBs at the start of my turn here (I've just ran the air missions).

The Soviets gained roughly 300.000 men on the map. In -one- turn.
I assume they're also getting a bucket of disabled and 'damaged' (Hospitalized) soldiers back to the frontline.
I do not know if this is a regular pattern as I've never sharply observed it but also MSAG is being more conservative with his forces there compared to how he was at May-June when he mustered 5M men on the map.

The Axis for how well set and positioned roughly kept the same numbers, as per in a not too active phase I am barely floating where I am right now.

I've still to play the turn so I expect two Corps to surrender at least which should be a decent chunk of soldiers raising arms!

[AlbertN]

T60 - Post Recon revelations

Here how Recon took place and where the enemy forces are.

The Soviets are shielding Yarsolav I feel and a longer type of encirclment about Moscow (which I do not consider feasible at all).

Nonetheless they mustered aplenty of troops over there quickly to patch the situation!

But there is another possibility I am caressing - I deliberately included the last railroad that serves the Leningrad zone / front of operations. It is definitely a daring operations but I suspect Soviet trucks will suffer immensely to keep supplied that region IF that railroad is severed!

[AlbertN]

T60 - Counter Encirclement?

The Axis forces counterattacked. I decided to rout as well a Guard Tank Army (Well in truth hoped to retreat it in the right direction but it proved impossible, the GD Division crashed into it with a deliberate assault. One may argue I could have done it 'hasty' though).

Nonetheless I have the gut feeling the Russians will open the pocket in turn as the frontal shield is pretty much what was there already of mine, and that was trapped and thus low on supply. Air supply will be flown there and some Stukas relocated in the region already but I do not plan to leave ground support up for the Russian turn.

On the other hand the dozen of extra divisions (albeit still somehow fatigued) the 11th Army brought definitely crippled any Soviet wishful thinking of grand offensives - whereas without the 11th Army I am still confident I'd have stalled the attack but without the capability of punishing the initiative adequately.

What I am to evaluate is a push from the 1st Panzergruppe (that has only 1 Panzerkorp here at operational level) from the south in direction of Stalingrad. That may force the Soviets to divert attentions BUT I am far from sure of that. The air recon reveals that the Russians have a double layer of Infantry divisions deployed as chessboard to shield the approach to their industrial City. - May take a bit of time to think and ponder, that PzK has 2 good motorized divisions and 2 panzer divisions that are panzer by name only and are glorified motorized regiments with a tank battallion attachment in truth...

[AlbertN]

T60 - Caucasus Progress

Elected not to attack Krasnodar this turn. Bombers were issued to the region ... Goering said he has no bombers to spare, unless they're removed from other theathers (Which is well doable due to theathers being overloaded with bombers).

But Romanian Bombers were issued (yes don't laugh at me) as they had plenty to spare, and some of them are already 'training' by bombing partisans. (Note the ' ' - pilots ought not to train i nthe Garrison box).

The eastern side of the front is ... manned by a bunch of Romanians. What could ever go wrong?
Another reason for which I am sensibly refraining from using the reserve PzK up north - it works also as an emergency intervention for the south.

But I took already a decision of a half-arsed commitment, a frontal attack the 2 MOT divisions to a single Soviet RD that as predicted routed having only 1 Fort level and in open plain.

That keeps the 2 'Panzer Divisions' by name at the ready to fend off infiltrations of cavalry and the like at the expence of the Romanians (interlocked by a dispersed German ID admittedly).

It's a thin veil but I believe Russian punches are elsewhere, so here it is just the 'war of the poors' pretty much!

If I was in the Soviet side though, I'd have launched here the counteroffensive. BUT it is also to be said, the supply of Soviets here may be tenuous too considering the only have 1 railline and I think the Caspian ports for.

Now, time to unplug myself from the PC and go sort chores and the like. Turn will have to wait.