A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

[Jango32]

I've started noticing that hasty attacks with Panzer divisions no longer produce satisfactory results even against small Soviet units in clear terrain (early 1941).

They just seem to retreat a few hexes with relatively minor losses.

[Jango32]

Never mind, it seems it's hasty attacks in general.

[Erik Rutins]

I'm not seeing that - if you think you've found an issue, please start a new thread and report it with a save to reproduce it, but I just tried again quickly and hasty attacks with reasonable force are working well for me as the Axis in 1941.

[Jango32]

I've started a new thread and if needed I will send the PBEM save file in a private email so as not to reveal the password.

I've also collected some data by attacking a division over which I had complete intelligence (no breaking FOW rules) in a server game and will post them in the thread if needed.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Moscow with Numbers: Mission Impossible

An impregnable fortress by now.

Even before the 'attack nerf' patch it was a difficult business. I've discovered that the digging civilians are insane, noticed Soviet hexes going from no trenches to 2+ fortifications in 1 turn.

But right now the problem is that no matter how much I can throw at a Soviet Corp, it is not going to budge I feel. Not with these numbers at least.

They're fresh, rested and amazingly supplied.

I can write off Moscow and pretty much half of summer of efforts in this direction.

But right now even in the most pinkest ever assumption that I've 6 divisions (2 Corps) of good quality (Let's take the 14-15 CV ones) I muster 15 * 6 = 90 CV. These X means it's over 100. Am I to start a deliberate attack with under 1:1 ratio?
In previous patch it was something doable, one knew the quality of the troops and the mass of numbers would manage.
Now by what I have seen I am certain I won't.

For science I will attack the 29 defending stack. Yes, the weakmost. Using the divisions closeby plus one to have 6 divisions attacking. I know they're not rested and all - but to move up will take time, fatigue the new formations, etcetera.

Let's see how it goes, I think I may barely take it OR fail even.

That will be just to gain a single hex! Where ... I won't even be able to advance into it (and even if I advance it leads nowhere).

[AlbertN]

T60 - German Formations

For the show.
Supply is what it is. I am in front of Moscow and they get what they get. They're not lavishly supplied as Soviet troops certainly are.

On the other hand you can see the experience the troops have (and in general to get there, they must have had morale that high somewhen).

The 106th Division belongs to the Model Corp, an undefeated unit (for now!). It has some attachments and thus is bolstered, but has no maxed CCPs.

The 23rd is a more mundane division, that reached 80~ Morale before the plummet and dropped some since. It is still an excellent unit, 90% TOE so definitely healthy - and with 100 CCP, with an abysmal amount of fatigue.
Consider this unit has been sitting there doing nothing except digging its own fortification for turns by now.

You know then you need build up of let's say 3 turns if not more to get there. Do nothing 3 turns, attack in one turn. A month of gameplay.

It won't lead to the fall of Moscow with the present numbers. Not even the encirclement of Moscow.

Guards I believe have +10 NM compared to the normal Russians. So they'd have 60, maybe 65 NM. Infantry Guard Corps. And here they're with their defensive X!

[AlbertN]

T60 - The attack 'for science'

Well - the forts were not present - and the Soviet formations got bested. But retreated in good order and with pratically non existant retreat losses.

Numbers down below.

I shall perform a tactical retreat, as I do not plan to advance further here and the local spot is ... unhealthy to linger at.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Leningrad Tango

The dance may be over soonish there due to increasing Soviet numbers too.

I wished to play 'smart' and got hammered. The first attack was made with just one hex instead of two so that the other hex could advance and maybe the motorized and panzer division present there even advance further.
There was the rather nasty surprise that within the Guard Corps there were extra troops in sheer abundance making it very puffed and inflated.

Thus in the second attack I had to use 3 fresh (from the turn) infantry divisions and the other hex, and used 3 other infantry divisions to occupy the just vacated hex.

It does not seem a sustainable pace here either.

Present forecast? Probable sitzkrieg to happen soon. Winning tactic? With current patch, probably so.
Fun match? Doubt so. If the idea is to play trench warfare there are WW1 games for that.

I am open to suggestions if anyone has any. Sentiment is extreme frustration right now.

[AlbertN]

T60 - Theather Boxes Tips / Explaining

Here you can see Finland and Italy respectively.

TBs are particular - each type has a base value given by the most prominent type of unit required for it.

So that for Ground, it counts as 'BASE' your line ground units (Infantry, Cavalry, Armour, etc).
For Air, it is Fighters for instance but once you grasp the Ground it is the same repeated for the other concepts.

Look at Italy (The right one). The total I presently have are pratically 65 out of a need of 68. That translates to a 95%. I am at a measly risk of losing 1 VP and 1 AP because of that right now.

Then there is a base value - that is the sum of the CVs of all the 'line' units (Infantry, Armour, Cavalry, etc). In general a player can see a number expressed in CV if they hoover on the relevant units, when on the 'Ground' screen showing all the units in the Theather.

Then we've the list of 'specialties' that can contribute. In a percentage that is relative to your BASE value.
Check out the Bomber line. It says 10% - that is the maximum bombers can contribute for the Ground Factors! 10% of your base.
I am explaining this because when I checked the manual I've not found it in the Theather Boxes, so I think it may help other players.

Bombers, they give me 4.77 (Exactly the 10% of my BASE) - but ... there is a 46.11 to the right? what's that? That's the value of all my bombers. I am wasting here 40+ points pretty much! [Though before one rips heads off, bombers are needed as well in larger amount for the Patrol Value]

Fighters too seem to be in abundance (But they shape the BASE value for the Day-Air percentages!).

In other sectors well under the percentages that limits our maximum. And by all means there is no need to reach the caps. Theathers are here to allow the Axis player optimize a bit their own play with what they've at hand, since the Soviets can just create all their optimal / most performing type of SUs and avoid the ones that instead underperform or sucks truck from the pool.

Then if we look at Finland ... we've a strong BASE there of 184 pratically. But we only use a small portion of our Bomber allocation. 10 points out of 18. By taking a Bomber squadron from Italy and sending it to Finland we won't damage Italy (with due check for Naval values but as we're at 178% I am not fussed... whilst these extra bombers (German ones obviously, Italians cannot go there) can top the missing %! Maybe 2 squadrons of bombers may allow us to whisk away a mountain regiment from there that can come handy on the front too!

And in general IF your value in brackets for the Specialties is higher than the one non in brackets, it means you have excess of them there. Unless you are to raise your BASE value, you can shift around stuff in excess. For instance in Finland there are too many Construction Units - presently: the 11.24 total value they would contribute is simply limited and thus they give 9.19.

Now, if I was to do the grand plan of 'send bombers, whisk away mountain regiment' I'd incur in a domino effect. Bombers may give me some more BUT as I remove a line unit, my BASE value will drop some - which in turn lowers all the percentages calculated on the BASE value.

Do I min-max it?
No.
But I play with it some, especially as I like to get this or that battallion and regiment to tuck in this or that Axis Minor unit to boost them some. I ended up having Italian Alpini as frontline units, even if in the Caucasus. But even a German battallion if not even a regiment there can help. OR if one needs extra push somewhere...
See what MSAG did. Fill your corps with SUs where needed to bolster locations without stressing your command chain.

Now going to finish the turn, air supply and other boring stuff. Active operations are over!

[Gunnulf]

Cutting him down to a single rail track will be hurting I'm sure. It might not be the magic bullet to make the city fall but it will reduce the relief forces ability to break the siege, and focus his attentions on shifting you off those heavily wooded blocking positions. I think I would worry a little about truck attrition, despite a couple of north-south roads, especially when winter comes. Overall though despite being held in sight of Moscow seems like its looking pretty good all round, especially with his overall OOB at 5.5m. I'm at a similar time with the Red Army at 7m and now I'm worried that somehow there I am facing 100+ extra divisions out there somewhere with the express intention of doing harm. I'd say you have drained him pretty well all told while keeping your own forces in pretty good shape and have less to worry about a serious counter-attack in the near future and can maintain the initiative. Nice work.

[AlbertN]

In '42 a 7M Red Army seems awfully wrong - and way too large.

I am struggling against a 4.5 M Red Army - and I feel that's about right for Summer '42 tbh.
I admit I am short of figures and numbers there though and probably even these are 'differing' from this to that historical and scholar.

[Gunnulf]

Two very different Soviet strategies for sure which is interesting to see. Looks like MSAG has been contesting more terrain it seems which is costing him numbers, but subsequently has many many more battle hardened Guards which is why you are maybe starting to feel the pressure from better quality of troops as well as numbers now. Still looks like you are in a solid position to give him trouble and are deeper into his key terrain in the north particularly. If you can cut off Novorossiyk with naval patrols too you can clear out a big pocket there eventually too and shorten your lines considerably.

[AlbertN]

That's the idea yes. I've enough planes to get that sorted, especially as Naval Patrol Values in TBs are pretty high.

I believe it affects as well the fact the game was played for the most of its turns (of present) with the 'artillery might' or whatever we can call it!
And yes MSAG contested terrain rather fiercely.
I like his playstyle in general because it keeps me on the toes too.

The pointe he made - move in, hammer some divisions and pull back - in the Tambov zone I think it has been a smart thing, and certainly an operational success.
At the same time he has instead pushed on with the armour around Stalingrad - it may be a wrong move, due to how I moved the 11th Army mostly - BUT that also means he decides by situation and has no specific operational pattern.

[AlbertN]

T61 - The Battle for Don River Bend

The Soviets freed their armoured corps easily and in the process butchered some Axis divisions that surredered heinous losses.

My bad there I suspect - I should have just routed the pocketed armoured corps of the Soviets during my turn and moved in troops replace the ones that were isolated by the Soviets instead!

Some German divisions are barely able to fight on right now after said pounding, being a shadow of their own self. May evaluate to retreat them to the Reserve or Western Europe to have them lick the wounds.

This time there are no encirclements made here so it seems the combat will take the echo of front assaults if needs to be.

[AlbertN]

T61 - Leningrad Tango

There are buckets of Air Transport squadrons on the Soviet end operating here too - and with some air missions they just deliver the needed to prevent Leningrad to be isolated.

I am unsure how much freigh the Li-2 ships in, and if it can help sustaining a defence. Their AA fires like madmen at each sortie the bombers do outside their port.

The Soviet also are churning out airfields like no tomorrow, at a way faster speed than the Germans.

Right now I am not feeling any limit on the Russian operational capability there despite their being supplied by a single track railroad.

My own Flak does not seem to cut it, at preventing the Li-2 from shipping the needed stuff!

I'll post air losses of the last turn now before my air phase as the Soviets are also fiercely operating with fighters over the Ladoga Lake.

[AlbertN]

T61 - Air Losses (mostly over Leningrad)

Axis bombers operate just here. A 1:1 losses with the Soviets is not acceptable for the Germans at all.

Especially when the sacrifice of hundreds of planes a turn does not even isolate Leningrad.

Supposedly the -single- port they've still drains from the very same single railroad that the whole front there relies on SO supposedly I could entirely stop air operations AND their issues should somehow persist.

I am pretty confident though the Russian logistics are massively ace and they won't even budge at all.
I mean, their numbers have not dropped at all there and their front seem massively solid to me anywhere they've not brought fresh troops (not sure what these two new divisions are, the 1-8 stack)

Now I shall proceed to study what to do in the air this turn ... which may take a while too.

The issue is that the bombers go on and on and on as they've more mileage, even if there is no escort at hand (not sure if I can fine tune that via setting). I've in the area both fighters associated as escorts to the bombers, and fighters flying air superiority mission to have a double layer yet in many occasions the Level Bombers got caught unescorted at all and got butchered.

Other news from the front:

Krasnodar has been left to its fate and thus is isolated.

Where the 'Attack for Science' was made the Soviets counterattacked. A panzer division in reserve triggered the intervention. It turned into a bloody massacre for the Soviets attacking.

Two German leaders gained skill point... one of them alas was in Political Rating.

[AlbertN]

T61 - Leningrad Air Tactics?

I tried something different which produced better air to air results (still sub optimal I think) but definitely failed at delivering the needed interdiction level. (Needed between brackets since the air supply business keeps Leningrad afloat from isolation).

Pratically I decided to run Air Superiority the first 3 days with the FW190s, that supposedly should have cleared the air from most of the enemy airplanes assuming they operate all the days. Then the last four days of the week the German bombers went in to produce interdiction but failed at producing the needed amount in that window of time, to sever the supply path.

Ulterior Luftwaffe assets are being shifted in the sector but it seems they're more devouring freight than producing results.

The last resource is to hunt the Li-2 airbases and try to destroy them on the ground. But I feel the Soviets by now have plenty of them in stock/pool to replace the losses no matter what.

[AlbertN]

T61 - Don River Bend Battle

It seems the battle of who gets exhausted than else.

The Soviet troops that were victorious in their own turn were tired and worn and fatigued; and German divisions that are not exactly that fresh either in terms of fatigue and still sapped in strenght from the Voronhez assault push and shove back.

Both tried to encircle at first and simply -- it was fruitless.

In the screenshot here the GD Elite division (loaded with SU) crashes a tired Cavalry Corp of the Russians. The division it was with retreated from a previous combat and in fact its combat value is insignificant.

Now that the middle stack got all the hexes around German controlled, it will rout if I win a battle against it.

Stukas are being used in the battle too BUT they're useless. The Air Patch should come and come fast as right now the system has holes and mostly rewards Soviets for all I remember when it comes to bombing - or at least the Il2.

Nonetheless - the combat factors in the zone are just exceedinly low for German units too. After they fought 1-2 battles they're exhauested and logistics are a problem on German end.

[AlbertN]

T61 - Don River Bend Battle

It seems the Soviet units 'routed' in exceptional order and with measly losses!

But here the Stukas at least produced some numbers that are not just 0 and 1s! I spy some 2s on Soviet Artilleries (and disruptions too).

Somehow the German commanders expected a more successful aggression here ...

[AlbertN]

T61 - Battle for the Don River Bend

Final sketch barring reserve movements - but the offensive operations here have been finished.

I decided to unleash also the 1st Panzergruppe corp in reserve, convinced that the Soviet offensive soaked the large bulk of the mobile Soviet forces in the region and the screen at my right flank should not be in immediate threat.

Plus the sector is receiving reinforcements (1 Romanian division *coughs coughs*) freshly restored in force from sitting in the Axis reserves, and trained up!

I believe both sides are relatively exhausted though but to capture a few Rifle Divisions is not to be disdained if the Soviets keep the position.

Mostly IF for any reason Stalingrad is encircled - will the Soviets have enough Air Transports for both Stalingrad and Leningrad?

But I doubt I've the operational capability to encircle Leningrad even if I lighten up Moscow front.