Struggling with this Game

[vicberg]

I played WITE and WITP, for a while. I realized that WITP requires hours and days to make work because of a pretty bad UI that really doesn't manage bulk at all. Way too time consuming. I'm hoping at some point, the WITP UI is improved. I'd buy that game again.

WITE1 was fun. Air war was too abstracted, but otherwise fun and relatively fast. I read through exciting AARs from players. Solid game.

I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.

All of this feels like the new version has to be more complex in order to be the new version, much like Paradox Interactive, fetishizing complexity for their core base. You've missed the 90% of the people out there who might play it (and give you money) for the 10% who want this insane, time consuming, very complex logistics game. Not a solid business choice.

I have liked Matrix Games for a long time and bought many. But if the direction continues to be on the few people who post here all the time and the AI "Assists" don't really do the job, again a nod to those who want to spend days on their turns, then these games aren't for me.

[overkill01]

If it's not you're thing, then it's not you're thing, get over it.


In the end WitE aim's to be a realistic, history correct strategy game.

That will make it a complex game.

Being a complex game, it is to be expected that the game isn't perfect for everybody who is playing.

And they are still working to iron out problems with the game.


I think you just got you're expectations wrong.

[vicberg]

If the game forces an insane amount of work in order to achieve "historical accuracy" then you are confusing UI design with accuracy. Historical accuracy can be achieved with a solid UI. If the UI requires too much work to achieve that "accuracy", then you have software that is trying to achieve "accuracy" via complexity. Your appealing to the power gamers.

[overkill01]

Because it's a complex game (witch is intended), there is so much information to be displayed, so many functions to toggle and set.
Obviously, because of this, the UI wont be perfect, it never will.
And there certainly will always be people who dislike this or that, neither do I like the airplane transfer for example, much better in WitW.
I'm sure the dev's will still be working on it too.

You can't expect to have 1 thing and not having to deal with the negatives.
Every big strategy game has the same problem, John tiller's games for example.
You just learn to use it, it's just a thing you deal with if you want to play games like this.

They try to achieve historical accuracy while giving the player controll over it all, wich make it a complex game.

I think, overall, they did a great job with the UI .

[vicberg]

Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy? I've tried it. They did a great job with UI? How do you transfer air units easily? You're actually making my case. Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.

[overkill01]

I literally said I don't like the air transfer, or maybe my english is worse then I thought.

But actually, it isn't hard at all, in the end you just select you're planes, drag a box and click transfer.
But yes I don't like it either.

[Dreamslayer]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy? I've tried it. They did a great job with UI? How do you transfer air units easily?

Try to look on 5-AOG Manual Ops.jpg in Manual folder.

[vicberg]

That's my point. Why couldn't they create a simple UI, drag and drop. Why the complexity? That's appealing to the 10% of folks that post here. Sad. They really missed the boat.

[overkill01]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.

Isn't that what a dev should do in the first place, appeal to the fan's (fanbois, are we gonna start insulting now ?) who actually liked and supported the previous games ?
even if it's only 10% ? 10% of what actually ? gamers ? that's a lot of people, 10%.

[vicberg]

I don't want to look and should look on 50 posts that tell me what I need to do? Geez. Don't you get it? Doesn't Matrix get it?

[DeletedUser44]

OMG Guys,

Are you fanbois on paid retainer? Maybe you have Matrix shares in your portfolio?

What a way dog-pile just because he is struggling. Hell, that was the title of his post!

The game is complex. There are some aspects of the UI that are very good. But some portions are in desperate need of some love. Dare say, some of the UI completely sucks.

WiTE2 is improving and getting better.

One area that vicberg addressed was the AI Assist. He is correct. It is currently completely sub-standard.

There is certainly room for improvements. I sincerely believe they are working to address some of the things vicberg identified. Give it another 3 months or so and it may be to the point of being easier for novice players.

Don't give up on it just yet.

[vicberg]

Actually, no. Matrix should be going after market. Not sure if they are up on that yet. They are going after those who post on this site, meaning they are limiting their market. Significantly limiting their market. I'm not buying anymore Matrix Games after my experience with WITE2. Why? Spend days doing a turn? Tons of clicks? Not interested. I'm trying to help this company understand their broader market and it isn't the power gamers. Sure way to failure.

[overkill01]

In the end this is a neverending discussion within the wargaming community, both board and computer games.

How much historical accuracy should a dev sacrifice to make a game playable.

IMO WitE2 did just great.

If you don't like it that is fine, just get over it and find something else you like.

[vicberg]

Yep

[vicberg]

This isn't my game. And I'm good with that

[Gunner Garidel]

Without trying to get too deep into the weeds, I definitely classify as a 'noob' -- not as a gamer, but on computer games. The smartest thing I have done was to follow the YT Series WITE2 by Strategy Gaming Dojo. I did what he explained in the Air War part of the series, and, honestly, I did not find transferring air units to be at all difficult.

As to the game being complex, yes, I agree it is complex; however, there is a difference between being complex as to opposed to being 'complicated'. War, in and of itself, is a VERY complex endeavor, but, when push comes to shove, it is not at all complicated. Considering WITE2 is attempting to replicate the greatest conflict in the history of the WORLD, I would say the game is not overly 'complicated', all things considered.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

..

One area that vicberg addressed was the AI Assist. He is correct. It is currently completely sub-standard.

....

like any AI routine, could it be better? In theory yes, though trying to make it behave differently can also make it behave worse - AI development is rarely linear

is it "completely sub-standard", well Gunulf is using it in his AAR with ATAtack and its not exactly hindering him, so, as happens a few times, there may just be a bit of over-claiming there?

As to the OP, not every game is for everyone. If I understand it right, Matrix/Slitherine seem to have a rough and ready division of more detailed games under the Matrix lable and more accessible games under Slitherine.

The core to any GG game is the underlying detail, that does tend to reduce the feasible player base but then its also what makes his games so good in the eyes of some players?

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy?

Yes it is.

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.

Yes, how terrible of a company to appeal to the people that enjoy a complex game. The horrors. Dont lash out on other players simply because the game is not what you wanted. The players who enjoy the complexity of the game also do so because of how accurate it is.

ORIGINAL: vicberg
How do you transfer air units easily?

How do you say this and then when pointed to a single picture that explains air transfers you reply with this:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I don't want to look and should look on 50 posts that tell me what I need to do? Geez. Don't you get it?

No, I dont get it. Can you explain why when pointed to the thing that answers your question, instead of opening a single, very simple picture file you would rather throw a tantrum like a child?

If you dont like the game, make productive arguments about what needs to be changed instead of going on a rant about players that actually enjoy the game. Or simply move on.

[Khanti]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

(...)

I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.

(...)

Yes. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield.
Yes. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, but easy to manage feature.
Yes. Air war is complex - still learning it without much success.

[altipueri]

I've been very generous in purchasing huge games that I will never play:

WITP-AE - War In The Pacific
PON - Pride of Nations
WON - Wars Of Napoleon

and now

WITE2

At least the WITE2 manual is heavy enough to keep the fire door open !