A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

[Stamb]

I like how 88 m3 Lee and 32 M3A1 Stuart are listed as AA. Does the same goes when Axis division is under attack? If i recall correctly - no.

Edit.

Also total armor units, on the top, for the Soviet side are showing 55. Support units do not count?

Edit 2.

Ah Soviets have 0 SU.

88 M3 Lee and 32 M3a1 = 120 tanks.

But battle report shows only 55.

[AlbertN]

T70 - Away from Stalingrad

Shortening the lines here before the Winter hits.

I am not sure how ready the Soviets are due to their perpetuated offensives and counterblows to frustrate my plans but there is a long, long way from the railroads in some of the spots there.

It may be a fatalistic, historically inspired or plainly wrong decision to shorten the line but I believe it will do better to the Germans and to let the Russians come to them.

IF it was another game probably to keep the threat to Stalingrad was better, but WITE starts to give me again the vibes of 'being written as a book no matter what'.

With the gradual (and excessive) looming decline of German quality of troops, logistics that are disfunctional (from my perspective, explained already), it is impossible that a '43 offensive can lead to seize a target as relevant as Stalingrad even if for any reason I was clinging to the Don River Bend and repelled Soviet offensives right there.

I've already a problem of shortage of panzers to replenish my panzer divisions.

[AlbertN]

I've seen Axis rifle squads and the like firing as AA against Il2. It may be something about dive bombing.

Also remember AA intervention is from 1 hex away too (or it can be flyover).
I do agree though in these cases it should only be real AA guns.

I've sent the turn forward - so it is down to my opponent now. Finalized a very weak encirclement in the Caucasus sector.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Logistic System WTF?

I really understand that there was a desire to put emphasis on the Logistics.
I do agree they're an important aspect of warfare.

The problem is when the system is ... disfunctional, at least from my perspective.

The priority system does not cut it.
Novorossiysk got 7000+ Freight from ship - which supposedly it is good. But it all got distributed from there, being spread from there up to Moscow ... see all these white lines there, that is where the Freight went.

There is a single, well closer and linked up depot. (alas the Soviets made a pointe and broke the rail there leading to Maikop...): Kropotkin.
That depot received 700 Freight. From Vienna.

Right?

People can write essays on 'truck management' and 'logistics' but as long as the system handling the whole ordeal simply does not work in any logical manner but just a random way.

A Tier3 Depot will send Freight to -any- Tier4. So while supposedly the supply should flow Berlin -> through Rostov -> Caucasus front I've the opposite.

I could probably put a monkey organizing supply, it would do it better than here where Berlin -> Mariupol -> Embark and goes Novorossiysk -> Back on train to Moscow.

How things like these eluded the radar when the game was in design it is beyond me.

PS: Yes Mariupol is intended to be an export depot even if it should not be really the one exporting. The issue there is that Export Depots have a supply priority so it is a way to ensure I somehow get some supply there at least. (Where I've air lift).

Thus, as mud comes, due to the Logistic system being bogus, I assume my trucks will be playing destruction derby of their own accord.

I am tempted to hit the AI DEPOT ASSIST for 1 turn to see if the AI itself, supposedly knowledgeable of its own logic, can do better. But I fear it will destroy an amount of depots with freight, with the subsequent loss of freight.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Soviet Mighty Attack

Here I feel I've peeled it! Just out of the Light Mud. If it was clear I suspect the Soviets simply shove 1 hex a turn of the Germans otherwise.

Given they poured together a huge mass of troops but I also think they were not CCP loaded as they hit the panzers the turn before.

Now here the Soviets have been butchered in terms of losses but their CV has barely budged (from 1081 to 987) while German one dropped sensibly (I think out of the fort destroyed).

Despite the quite terrific losses inflicted the Soviets breezed through that in terms of CV.

The elite German FJ do not seem much elite, when they have such a poor hit ratio too if compared to regular rifle squad of a seasoned infantry division.

I suspect at this stage I am to expect at least 6+ 'loaded' corps attack a turn on one hex. And the German front will just budge if the attacked hex is defended by 1 single division no matter how fortified the location is (barring Urban maybe).

I am not sure why MSAG picked a 2 division hex but I assume it is due to having 3 hexes to attack from. I'd have rather picked a 1 division hex I can attack from 2; than a 2 division hex that I can attack from 3. (Ideally 2:1 > 3:2)

That may consist of a problem as an amount of frontline hexes are manned by just a regiment in some quiet sector, i a regiment is attacked it will simply buckle in savagely, and the general lack of reserve units for Germany (That is though due to me having a whole army still pinned at Leningrad and I assume and overstretched front into the Caucasus).

Reserves would magically appear out of thin air if I was to retreat behind Kerch Strait and the Don River Bend.

[Stamb]

I completely agree with you AlbertN. Logistics seems to work only if there is only 1 straight line with 1 2 3 4. Also super depots can do magic of bringing supplies to a front, while without them you will get much less no matter what you do .

Was there any PvP game where Stalingrad was taken?
It looks like only North can be supplied normally with a Center being so so and South struggling.
And after first winter there is no much improvement in comparison with a summer '41. 20-25k freight each turn?

[AlbertN]

T71 - Tambov / Voronhez sector

Post air recon.

The Soviets have grown confident as the bad weather arrives.

This sector has been calm for months by now. Since the fall of Voronhez.
The German line of forts is still far from being complete - despite people professing abundance of Admin Points I am always borderline with them to the 0!

I believe they're mostly infantry divisions though, for now at least. But I feel they're converting hexes and probing grounds to see if there is a reaction.

Right now I am in the process of 'disbanding' the fortified zones where there are 3 forts, and building them up in other locations with the 1 level fort.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Logistic Study...

Now here I put the Supply Situation of the 1st Corp - positioned well high in the north around Leningrad.

Due note - the Corps whole was also set on REFIT status and demanded more Freight than the needed (That was dictated by the perception of the Soviet build up for a Leningrad relief effort).

I've the luck to have 2 ports there. Supposedly useless ports since I do not need shipping across Lake Ladoga BUT ... just because these are ports I can set them to Export Ports (Even if they won't export anything) and I know I will get Freight there.

As you can see 4768 there in that Port - and I got 2000+ in the other port. I had to recur to a gimmick of the system, the 'Ports receive freight first' to ensure they get the needed freight on the front.

The 2000+ port (not in screenshot) is a Tier2 Export Port! It has received way more than Tier4 depots around the map that are mere non port Depots.

The 1st Corp is part of an Assault Army and has a Level 3 Supply Priority.
Syasstroy and Novaya Ladoga are the 2 ports in question that received the amount of supplies.
In the bottom corner of the screenshot you can see the small tidbit of relevant map. 2 units are stacked together of the 1st Corp.

2 Infantry Divisions (the two at the leftmost of the Supply logs) lost no trucks as they've not used trucks at all I believe, due to the range being 3 or less to the depots.

On the other hand the ... 24th Panzer division felt the need to gain that extra 132 Freight at some insane distance (8 hexes but I bet of swamps and forests) that ... costed 72 trucks of Attrition?

The same goes for the other 2 divisions.

The infantry division is definitely baffling. Seeking -14- freight from Chudovo, for it to cost 7 trucks? (Assuming the range 1 and 3 are horse pulled).

For which reason this nonsense is coded that way?
Because 'supply level 3'? I hope not because it's stupid and dumb if that is the case.

Supply level 2 means to get 60% of your supplies and ammunitions and will cripple the morale of the unit and have it suffer more attrition by frontline.
Supply level 3 sets it to decent percentages IF obtainable. That does not mean that the unit trucks should run the Paris Dakar and self destruct for a measly extra % of freight. - Because let's be frank, for the motorized division that's an extra 10% freight they got for 58 trucks. The infantry division has a rather abysmal % of extra freight (14 / 700 pretty much... 2%).

We have a tool (That I personally do not like but it has its sense) to instruct a unit to not receive replacements (limiting TOE %) beyond a certain value; but we do not have some kind of parameter to instruct a unit to not drive trucks into a self destructive race and just content with the amount of supply in easy grasp?

Because you know, all that was needed there (for how I loathe extra micromanagement) is to put some more parameters.

I tend to be a logical person - and simply when something eludes logic or worse, goes against it - I am just at a loss.
I can understand 'freight loss' as it is natural. Trucks being destroyed - when needed all fine.
But that an Infantry Division to gain 2% more freight for that turn (that I do not know in how much it translates, that 14 Freight) wastes the 7% of their trucks (They have 101 trucks...)...

After this turn the 1st Corp will be set out of REFIT for the most (4 divisions out of 5 got replenished and the Panzer division will live with the tanks it has, being set as local mobile reserve).

It may sound like a rant but the logistic system frustrates me beyond oblivion here.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Black Sea Coastline sector

The Italians and Romanians here seem cozy.
But they're gradually bleeding.

As part of my study of logistics I fit them in REFIT now that I linked back the railroad connection, as their 'Supply Detail' signals they get -75 / -100 replacements a turn.
I presume that is the attrition rate each division is suffering weekly, just to be sitting there in their measly fort in the mountains.

The poor Romanian infantry division at the rightmost suffered 200 just this turn IF my interpretation of the number of 'replacements' is correct. (Negative numbers).

As I check the Romanian divisions by the port too are at -200ish of replacements.

That means that this whole sector of the front is losing ... between 1000 to 2000 soldiers a week just by staying put?
On the other hand as the railroad was cut by the Soviets, the supplies getting there have been minimal and for some reason the port does not work.
It is not interdicted for all I can see - but it does not receive freight.
Tuapse lvl 2 port is repaired even. I'll try to leave it as only Import Port in the Black Sea for the next turn.

Here I am aware of the issue, I had air meant to bring freight there for a while BUT I expected the port to start functioning AND did not expected the Soviet bold maneuvers either.

On a totally different note I was (still am) planning the operating against the next Soviet port. It may bring their own supply in a dire situation if Sukumi is pretty much the next big depot.

Given, from my end to advance here will get me nowhere and it is not sought.


I hope I am somehow wrong otherwise the amount of casualties per turn are ... massive! Here

[Stamb]

What a trick with export ports!
As i wrote in a topic about a supply (can not find it) i had a feeling that transport system is not working in full power. As super depots can bring 15k to a front easily.

On the other hand the ... 24th Panzer division felt the need to gain that extra 132 Freight at some insane distance (8 hexes but I bet of swamps and forests) that ... costed 72 trucks of Attrition?

The same goes for the other 2 divisions.

The infantry division is definitely baffling. Seeking -14- freight from Chudovo, for it to cost 7 trucks? (Assuming the range 1 and 3 are horse pulled).

For which reason this nonsense is coded that way?
Because 'supply level 3'? I hope not because it's stupid and dumb if that is the case.

Looks like it is working in this way.
I see no reason to use supply priority greater than 2 if not close to a depot at the back or multiple depots on the front. Otherwise you will lose more than you gain.

And that is why i suggest to display reduction to a CV or at least MP as it was in wite 1.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5119384

I really hope that logistics system will be reviewed for potential bugs or general improvement of freight flow.

[AlbertN]

@Stamb: It's a documented 'trick' on the manual! That's where I've learnt that Export Ports are the first depots to get freight of them all!

T71 - Slovak realization...

I was not even aware Slovaks stopped producing artilleries of the sort since a while. Some even since November '41...

Yet their division kept asking for them.

All type of guns / howitzers Slovaks can produce seem to be out of the window alraedy despite the motorized division (and I assume their security division too) wants them in the TOE.

It seems Slovakia has been not checked well. I made already present the issue with their air units... as you can see they're receiving He111s and Bf109s from Germany but have 0 air units to use these planes with!

The latter hardly matters with the current state of the air war (Well I could have used some extra squadrons of fighters maybe in the future).

Now I am quite worried that if the Slovak division gets some mauling it will be pratically a mobile division without internal artillery at all?
I suspect there is a mistake here, and someone fat fingered the wrong end of production date for guns.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Fortification Stuff

This is more for new players as I see names I've never seen on the forums check the AAR.

I've kind of learnt it the hard way, and it's very basic here. The manual covers it better but I am the type of player that ... plays, check the manual and read around.
Some of you may know already what I am to write here.

As you can see in the screenshot the German fortifications are a mix of 1 to 3 level forts. It took me a while to learn, I was even thinking there was a bug and reported it as such, for Joel to kindly explain to me and point out to the manual where it was explained! I've read it - and misunderstood it. Then Gunnulf corrected me in their AAR, as I asked bout their impressive fortification line. So if you want you can just read it directly in Gunnulf AAR - which is quite interesting in the whole by itself!

So I think I got it now. Partly at least.

IF your Army is in Assault mode your troops will dig up to lvl 1 Fort.

IF your Army is NOT in Assault mode, AND adjacent to enemy hex (with units or vacant) = up to lvl 3 Fort.

IF your Army is NOT in Assault mode, AND without adjacent enemy hexes = up to lvl 1 Fort.

IF your ARMY is NOT in Assault mode, AND with a Fortified Region / Zone in the hex = up to lvl 3 Fort.

That does not include ports, urban / cities and potential other specific situations that I do not know of - the Manual covers it better.

The 'trick' though is that one can also advance with regiments to not 'gain control' of hexes ahead and peel a precise line with Regiments and reform the divisions there on need, once they're on the spot they're to dig in.

So this teaching I owe to Gunnulf.

Split division, move to gain the precise hexes you want and leave the control to the enemy to the proximity hexes ... and one can fortify up to level 3.

My own lines there would be in way better situation and shape if I had knew of that beforehand! Especially as this zone whole is pratically all plains ... once the rivers freeze...

[AlbertN]

T71 - Production Pools

Here some numbers.

For who does not know, anything with a # before the name is a type of product that is not manufactured anymore. They're just there to be used til destroyed.

Air losses went ballistic since the Allies started their Air Offensive in the West. I thought to be well off with a massive stock of fighters, but that is going down quite fast considering the inaction on the Ostfront.

Panzers - anything that is produced is sent to the front ... stocks are litterally 0. Note the PzIIIm, with 'ch=26'. And there are 26 in the pool. The fresh production!

The only surplus I've is of Tiger tanks. It's time to scavenge all the Heavy Panzer Battallions and cast them into the OStfront, and not even as special reserves but as first line action roaring kittens.

I am gutted at the Me323 Giant production halt. These guys are pivotal to hold some frontline spots away from railyards. But they're also fuel suckers. The Go244 have a nice cargo load but their range is lousy. The SM82 produced on license ought to be good though.

On the artillery department ... I am definitely short of infantry guns.
It seems there are buckets of mortars sitting in the pool - but I've no control on production and for all I've seen in terms of numbers, German mortars are highly inefficient.

[AlbertN]

T71 - Leningrad

Last bit of the turn for the AAR, Leningrad update.

Here I royally mucked up.

In the Leningrad perimeter there was that single fortified brigade that I could have easily destroyed - but I decided to attack first the division at the side (vacant hex) expecting it to surrender, and instead it retreated in the fortified zone! The idea was to spare the fatigue on the troops and attack the cheap target after...

The port of Orinovets falls - technically opening up possibilities / easening the risk of losing the ports at the Ladoga side. Given, I quite like them due to the 'Import Port' business, providing a solid anchor of the northern front.

Heavy rain hinders operations on the rest of the line.

[AlbertN]

T72 - Soviet Air Training Program?

I noticed (via the Logistic Log) that the Soviets are running a helluva of naval patrol missions all around the Caspian Sea.

Considering German forces are not even remotely operating in the zone - is this a way to train crews and pilots? I cannot think of any other reason, assuming there is a waste of fuel (Don't think it matters for the Soviets at all) and planes (but here I'd say they're using old models that are as good as modern ones in function of trainers. Even better than modern ones since in general the more a plane is performing, the higher are the chances a novice pilot crashes it).

I do not know what's the factual gain in Pilot experience there.

I've developed my own philosophy for now, that the VVS cannot match the LW in A2A but operational and flak losses will butcher the Luftwaffe if they fly.
So in general it's a matter of having the Germans fly. The issue is to force them to fly over and over and over.

But I do not know the production model for Soviet airforce. I just think it is quite insane in numbers.

[Jango32]

That is a fix for the Soviet cargo ships randomly getting damaged/destroyed; see https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... a&#5092826

[AlbertN]

T72 - Numbers & Recap

This is the first part of the 'relevant numbers' - at least from my perspective.

Here one can measure units on the map and their relative strenght, and the losses inflicted to the opponent.

If I am to compare that to Stalingrad to Berlin - supposedly Axis is well off in terms of fielded army. (There Axis has roughly 3M Germans and matching amount of minors, vs 6.3 or 6.5 M of Soviets, I checked last week but it is easy to load up the scenario all fresh as Soviet and look at the numbers).

Ontop of that, I am not having immediate danger of encirclement right now either.

Said that - I believe the Soviets will still give me lots of trouble and I've to discover now if a supposedly well off Axis can survive the coming onslaught through their artificial deflation of combat efficiency.

As reminder, from June41 to May42 this game has been via the Beta Patches where the artilleries were more combat efficient and the Soviets suffered heavier casualties.

I believe the game here is plenty playable, whereas in a situation of 3M Germans + Minors vs 6.5M of Soviets ... sorry but I suspect the Germans would get hammered quite easily in a mundane situation.

For territorial losses - as a matter of fact Leningrad has yet to fall but I expect it to be falling before the swap of initiative. There are negligible factories there though (6 Veichle factories I think and some light tank ones that may not get evacuated. Not sure...) vs the almost 70 T34 a turn Stalingrad churns.
That is a massive plus for the Soviets I feel.

Besides that - not counting hexes but VPs - the Germans territorial advances are sensible around Moscow.

Alberto why are not counting hexes?

System here is binary. Conquer VP hex or Not Conquer VP hex. To be stopped 10 hexes from <Target VP hex> or adjacent to it won't change the VP situation. That is what determines the game winner.

To have more hexes gives more wiggling and maneuvering space - yes. In many cases also can overextend one and put them in precarious situations. it's a tradeoff.

1943 Plans?

Early to say - I suspect grand elastic defence and trying to hold the VPs where possible without transforming them in Death Traps like Stalingrad was historically. But to manage to weight that well... it will be hard.

In the north I've a whim to hold the expanded perimeter but it will require to free up more rail. Technically it is an insignificant gain as the only 2 noteworthy thing there are a 12 Resource hub and the fact as long as I deny the Soviets the other railroads, Leningrad should be safely held with less troops (Once gained).

Where do you expect the Soviet Winter Offensive to come?

I admit I am clueless. Despite the numbers I feel the Soviets to be very, very strong.
Potentially they can hit -anywhere- with enough Guard Corps to put me in crisis despite the German inflated forces.

If I was the Soviet player I simply 'play' the game mechanism and crash into the Germans in front of Moscow. With Moscow fully functional as NSS all the units at 3 hexes of distance can pretty much horse draw from a pool of 250k Freight that renovates each and every turn.

These lvl divisions that are now rested and in level 3 forts will fend off some attacks, and bleed the Russians some but Germans do take time to fortify back up to level 3 and to replace their losses is not as easy as the Soviets.

After some battering and hammering the Soviets worm in their headway toward Mozaysk and Borodino and that type of penetration pratically has the German front south east of it suddenly become redundant or untenable.

Any new hex gained will have a massive rush of Moscow civilians to instantly fortify it up.

On the other hand the first Soviet interest should be another - to regain VPs before I seize Leningrad. Because right now my High Watermark is there, let's say I lose Rhyazan I drop of 10 points, so whenever I get Leningrad the bump will be 10 shorter.

[AlbertN]

@Jango: Thanks for the notion - I remember of that thread but in general all naval losses are extreme for Cargo Ships. Germans in the Baltic sea were not exactly endangered of sensible losses til late war and with Leningrad at least supplied adequately and Finns out of the war. And definitely in the Caspian Sea it would be easier to have no real wear and tear and shrink naval increments til the Germans can operate there.

T72 - Ulterior Numbers

Now ... technically one could just really regard the 'Manpower' there. All the rest can be fluff, especially if one is new.
And I am not new but fail to grasp an amount of things. -- Focusing on the right portion first ... how many bold soldiers to be one has at hand is probably the most relevant number of the whole analysis and preliminary study here. If there is no manpower there, simply no replacements will come, no matter how many guns and tanks and rifles your factories can churn.

Whilst not having a grand impact here, I am definitely aware that some numbers here are plenty wrong. Italian manpower production matching Hungary or Romania is ... fantasy. Now I admit I am unaware if one is inflated or another is deflated, but the population basis of Italy against Romania or Hungary simply suggests neat demographic differences. I assume Italy is undercut exactly as Italian army is under represented in National Morale and ... well their OOBs as well (But that is fine and fair, in WITE only 8th Army / ARMIR is relevant, the rest is TB Fluff. You can easily notice as the 8th Army OOB is extremely well detailed, including all artillery battallions that where in Russia, but somehow between Italy, Balkans and Afrika there are only 3 indipendent artillery battallions?). So ... yes ... sorry for the rant, this is something to evaluate for a War in Europe future game more than anything else (Where I'd really like production control or so.)



The 'cake diagrams'... I am being told that I need 3348 resources to have things function? But somehow there is a cut on what I use. (I mean, sparing 400k resources does not seem bad ... but is there a tradeoff?) I've litterally no control there except the 'hold this resource hub on the map' truly!

Then I've the Resource Store that ... going by math should increase each and every turn, not only I produce a tiny wee bit more than what I officially need... but my railyards function for free (I was not even aware that they had a cost to operate and anyhow 10k in front of thousands of thousands is negligible) and my Heavy Industry can undercut its necessity ... (Will check and post later if I am using it all!)

It's just a process of exploration, some number crunching (which I will delight in today as I've quite some free time and the turn at operational level will be non existant, being all muddy everywhere!)

The OIL situation is known. That is why I'd like to keep Maikop.
Now I've to saw I'd rather have a system that gives the % (30% damage I net the 70% of the whole each turn, not the RNG of having 70% chance to gain 100% of the production or 30% to gain 0 of it -- AND / OR proper and real repairing.

Maikop is still at 71% repairs right now (I may try to assign to the City more construction units but it may be a waste too) and I admit I do not remember to have seized it 29 turns ago ... maybe it's not 1% top BUT being something huge it requires a lot of repairers to ... repair it faster?
I am not even sure how much oil it would net me... (Yes I could do ulterior exploration and mathing that out too!)

Now you cannot see it as the image was too big but the Fuel Production of 173k is divided in 97k out of Fuel Refinery (So pratically a 2:1 ratio, 2k OIL = 1k FUEL) and 76k is out of Synthetic Fuel (4k Resources = 1k Fuel).

That is clear - then I start to go mind boggle. Both Fuel and Supply have a voice ... Units. Does that mean IN UNITS? Or 'UNITS' to be distributed to combat units? Prolly a read on the manual could help here.

I am to stop my deductions there as I am to end up providing non even educated guesses on the next bit. Noting down the study to do (more for science than else considering that is a part I cannot really affect but it can be important to know IF I must cling or not to resource hubs).

[Stamb]

AlbertN fuel is irrelevant. Once you reach ~250k as an Axis it will not drop less. I tested in my game vs AI. Not sure about other resources, but typically storage of them is just growing.

I do not like the damage system also when X% damage means that there is a X% chance to not generate some stuff.

[AlbertN]

@Stamb: I noticed that too as I checked the Graphs. Will post them next in the AAR.

T72 - Logistic Log report for Production!

Contrary to the manual it seems that 1/3 of Maikop fuel is there. Or so I count, 8 Fuel Items are damaged and I assume that is what Maikop is... I admit I checked the paper manual that I've so it may not be up to date but I am 100% sure I've read there it has a binary system of 'get it all or get none of it' per turn.

The 'Manpower' Parameter can be tricky because I've both Cologne and Hamburg damaged, but these do not tally up to 54, so I am confident it also counts up Soviet manpower hubs seized that generate HIWIs.

It seems to me that the Heavy Industry works at 100% despite not getting the needed resources from the 'cake diagrams'.
And that somehow the FW190 factory in Poznan has not received the needed resources for production??? Of all planes the most modern type of fighter they cut down ... ffs.