New supply rules in Russia cripple Axis play

[havoc1371]

I find the new supply restrictions in Russia cripple the Axis invasion. In a game I was playing, the Allied player pretty much stopped Barbarossa dead by September 41, even though I invaded early. Even in good weather, my forward line supply was in the 2-4 range and I was unable to reinforce or upgrade units. War in Europe has a much larger map than World at War, but pretty much the same force pool of units. So the Axis player is hard pressed to have units enough to conduct and maintain the invasion. The new supply rules make is virtually impossible for the Axis to remotely match initial historical successes of Germany in 41-42, let alone win. Anyone else experiencing this vs a live opponent with the same skill level? Going to try a few runs against the AI, but live opponents are what make this interesting.

I'm think they either need to scale back the supply restrictions or add to the available force pool for the Axis to be able to reasonably attack. Doesn't help that the Russians have level 3 infantry weapons and cheaper units than World at War. My opponent's Russian infantry was at level 2 before the first winter set in!

[BillRunacre]

Please do give it some more tests and try out deploying more HQs to see what impact they can have on the situation.

Just to clarify one point though: the USSR having to research up to level 3 in Infantry Weapons in order to reach parity with Axis units at level 2 isn't something that harms the Axis, quite the opposite.

[bfcj]

I think there is a not too uncommon misconception that Russian level 3 infantry are superior to level 2 infantry of other major powers.

[havoc1371]

So the Germans have to max out their logistics research and buy all the HQ's it can by spring of 1941 to have any hope of a decent showing initially? We'll see.

[Taxman66]

Certainly not.

I suggest you ask for a PBEM game against an experienced (Axis) player.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: bfcj

I think there is a not too uncommon misconception that Russian level 3 infantry are superior to level 2 infantry of other major powers.

Absolutely. If played correctly the Axis Armies and Corps have 2-3* of experience by the time SU achieves level 3 Infantry and are FAR superior to level 3 SU Armies & corps. This is after the Allied player has watched the German Tanks, Armies & Bombers go thru level 1 SU entrenched Armies and Corps like a hot knife thru butter.

The Axis also have an overwhelming number of HQs when you include Italy & minors.

Finally the supply rules work great, they offer a realistic supply experience in a war game.

[havoc1371]

I am an experienced player, and I am playing an experienced player, and we switched over to my opponent playing the Axis to see how he fairs. I am playing a separate game now against the AI as the Axis, with maximum logistics investment and will build all the German HQ's by Barbarossa to see what happens. Definitely has changed the playing field in War in Europe. Not so much in World at War because of the much smaller map scale and shorter distances between cities.

[Duedman]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Certainly not.

I suggest you ask for a PBEM game against an experienced (Axis) player.

This. If you do not manage to put the Axis player off balance before Barbarossa (denying Finland, invading Norway, overwhelming North Africa) an experienced opponent will cut really deep in 1941 + 1942.

Also I actually dont know what you mean by "new" supply restrictions?!

[archmache]

Yeah one of the tips you can do is use the Italian expeditionary HQ and the Romanian HQ to sit on the city then move your GE HQ forward to boost supply. When I do Barbarossa I only have about 4 GE HQ and then I build more in fall of 41 to have ready by spring 42 for the push into whatever direction I'm going. Would rather not Max the HQ early when I could get 2 more tanks and the mechanized infantry.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: archmache

Yeah one of the tips you can do is use the Italian expeditionary HQ and the Romanian HQ to sit on the city then move your GE HQ forward to boost supply. When I do Barbarossa I only have about 4 GE HQ and then I build more in fall of 41 to have ready by spring 42 for the push into whatever direction I'm going. Would rather not Max the HQ early when I could get 2 more tanks and the mechanized infantry.

If you max out HQs before Rommel arrives you get an extra HQ. Same for the SU, need to max out HQs before the Siberians arrive, then you have 8 with no logistic research. Don't lose any tho can't buy them back.

[Duedman]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

If you max out HQs before Rommel arrives you get an extra HQ. Same for the SU, need to max out HQs before the Siberians arrive, then you have 8 with no logistic research. Don't lose any tho can't buy them back.

I actually would not advise trying this. Not sure, if it is even possible.
But even if - the benefits are not worth it. Getting the third Para? Yes! Maxing out Panzers b4 Afrika Korps arrives? Yes! Trying to max out Logistics for an extra HQ while u got Italian, Finnish, Bulgarian and Romanian HQs? No!

Just my opinion tho

[havoc1371]

Last update, they made it harder to get supply in Russia for War in Europe and World at War. It doesn't have as big an impact (IMO) in World at War, because the map is more condensed, so distances between cities is less it is a much smaller "front line" to string out HQ's. In my AI test game, I've built every available HQ and German logistics is at "4", so there are 10 German HQ's in Russia, 1 Romanian, 1 Hungarian, with a Bulgarian on the way. October 41 and I mostly have decent supply. Before update, I could swing Barbarossa with 4-5 German plus the Axis allied HQ's. So a lot of mpp's that went to unit improvements and new units, now are going to making HQ's in time for Barbarossa. We're not there yet in my PBEM game, so we'll see how my Axis opponent does.

[havoc1371]

I always get three paratroopers for the Germans by buying one before the others start arriving. Helps with France, then with Greece and taking Malta. Got to baby them, because if you lose one, you can't rebuild the third one once its lost.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Duedman

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

If you max out HQs before Rommel arrives you get an extra HQ. Same for the SU, need to max out HQs before the Siberians arrive, then you have 8 with no logistic research. Don't lose any tho can't buy them back.

I actually would not advise trying this. Not sure, if it is even possible.
But even if - the benefits are not worth it. Getting the third Para? Yes! Maxing out Panzers b4 Afrika Korps arrives? Yes! Trying to max out Logistics for an extra HQ while u got Italian, Finnish, Bulgarian and Romanian HQs? No!

Just my opinion tho

I don't play the Axis but I see no reason it wouldn't. How many HQs do the Germans have when the DAK arrives? Germans probably invest in logistics anyway so it may not be as important as for the SU.

I've probably done it 100-150 times as the SU and IMO its a key strategy in a successful SU campaign. I can guarantee it works. You have 8 HQS instead of 6 from '42 on and don't need logistic research as early. Why wouldn't you advise it for the SU or is it you didn't think of it?

[havoc1371]

The amount goes up with your logistics level. January 1942 and I am at level 4 and I have 11 German HQ's on the map. Rommel in North Africa and the rest in Russia. Four Axis HQ's; Finland, Rumania, Hungry, and Bulgaria.

[Duedman]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

ORIGINAL: Duedman

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

If you max out HQs before Rommel arrives you get an extra HQ. Same for the SU, need to max out HQs before the Siberians arrive, then you have 8 with no logistic research. Don't lose any tho can't buy them back.

I actually would not advise trying this. Not sure, if it is even possible.
But even if - the benefits are not worth it. Getting the third Para? Yes! Maxing out Panzers b4 Afrika Korps arrives? Yes! Trying to max out Logistics for an extra HQ while u got Italian, Finnish, Bulgarian and Romanian HQs? No!

Just my opinion tho

I don't play the Axis but I see no reason it wouldn't. How many HQs do the Germans have when the DAK arrives? Germans probably invest in logistics anyway so it may not be as important as for the SU.

I've probably done it 100-150 times as the SU and IMO its a key strategy in a successful SU campaign. I can guarantee it works. You have 8 HQS instead of 6 from '42 on and don't need logistic research as early. Why wouldn't you advise it for the SU or is it you didn't think of it?

Sorry, I was mistaken. I somehow mixed it up with maxing out Logistics b4 Rommel arrives (which should be impossible).
Still I think maxing out HQs is not useful with Germany.
Its just more HQs than you need while you need all the troops you can get for Barbarossa. Can't do both without completely neglecting research.
Maxing out the number of tanks (and Tacbombers!!) before Rommel arrives has priority imho

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Duedman


Sorry, I was mistaken. I somehow mixed it up with maxing out Logistics b4 Rommel arrives (which should be impossible).
Still I think maxing out HQs is not useful with Germany.
Its just more HQs than you need while you need all the troops you can get for Barbarossa. Can't do both without completely neglecting research.
Maxing out the number of tanks (and Tacbombers!!) before Rommel arrives has priority imho

Given the number of Axis HQs Havoc mentioned that certainly seems to make sense. The SU doesn't have the luxury of logistics research early and it isn't as necessary with the supply if you have 8.

[Duedman]

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

Last update, they made it harder to get supply in Russia for War in Europe and World at War.

I looked at the changelogs for the last 2 updates and can not find anything about this.
Can you provide a link?

[havoc1371]

I don't know for sure when they changed the supply, but now supply in countries not allied to your side show up with red numbers in () reflecting reduced supply. I'm playing a game now where the Italians in Libya 1940 can't even invade Egypt because the supply from the HQ in Tobruk is reduced to 3 three hexes away. So now you literally can't take offensive operations unless you have a chain of HQ's from the start. This is ridiculous, applying the exact same supply modification to both War in the East and World at War, even though the map scale isn't the same. It's become a HQ building exercise to even play.

[BillRunacre]

Do you mean when you press S to see the Supply and there are two numbers next to the HQ?

If so the one in red is the supply the HQ is receiving, the one in green being the HQ's supply distribution value.

This display change was made last year:

- Supply map overlay will now display any mismatched supply values, e.g. if a unit has less than the overlay value, it will show in brackets in red alongside with the overlay value.

The biggest problem for the Axis in North Africa is supply and the effect Malta has on it, but Malta only has an effect if the unit occupying it has a strength of 5 or more, so bombing Malta can be a useful solution to Axis supply problems in North Africa!