Ok it's time to go

[littleike]

After have seen a a thread as Things to ponder closed without a word of discussion from mister Edmon (never known before)
without no one has been offended and seen that in this forum pin ups are considered an offense to common sense of chasteness
and that someone can close what he wants whenever it wants, due to my B-17 collection of nose art that i want to be free to
collect and share i will no more post here until that thread will not be reopenede and pin ups posting would not be considered an illegal action.

Thanks to all i have shared my time from many years.

Best regards

Littleike

[Nomad]

I have much the same feeling. I have never heard of not being able to post pinup pictures.
Our AAR titled "Pinups in the Pacific" many years ago featured many pinup pictures and there
was never anything said. It seems that some new moderator has decided to impose his morality.

[btd64]

There's new rules in play. Don't remember what they are called. But it is a little over board. No pun inteneded....GP

[mind_messing]

You'll get little sympathy from me, I'm afraid.

Routine objectification of women has certainly been one of the more disdainful elements of this wider community, and it's certainly not an attractive or welcoming feature. Not from a business perspective and not from a social perspective either.

This is a step in the right direction but there's certainly more to be done.

[Ian R]

To be fair, Edmon probably doesn't have any professional discretion on this one. In fact, professional discretion seems to be an historical artifact these days. It seems to be considered elitist or something.

Speaking of professional discretion, are any of you watching the Novak Djokovic saga unfold? Might need to buy some popcorn today.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You'll get little sympathy from me, I'm afraid.

Routine objectification of women has certainly been one of the more disdainful elements of this wider community, and it's certainly not an attractive or welcoming feature. Not from a business perspective and not from a social perspective either.

This is a step in the right direction but there's certainly more to be done.

MM, whilst that (bold bit) is true, it does raise two questions, about which many PHD theses probably already have been, and many more will be, written:

1) If the objectifying items (*sexist, and racist as well) are the subject of legitimate historical study - items such as propaganda posters, or aircraft nose art - because they form part of the history of the era under study, is that an acceptable academic endeavour?

2) To what extent should we impose, today, the social standards of our era, on the study of previous historical era, and the actions of the persons of those times? This is sometimes I think referred to as the "black armband" view of history.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You'll get little sympathy from me, I'm afraid.

Routine objectification of women has certainly been one of the more disdainful elements of this wider community, and it's certainly not an attractive or welcoming feature. Not from a business perspective and not from a social perspective either.

This is a step in the right direction but there's certainly more to be done.

Yep, agreed.

There's a difference between posts that are like "this is what they used to paint on the noses of the planes" and "look at these jugs" when referring to a picture of a woman. It's far easier to just say "don't post those things" than it is to try to enforce a distinction.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You'll get little sympathy from me, I'm afraid.

Routine objectification of women has certainly been one of the more disdainful elements of this wider community, and it's certainly not an attractive or welcoming feature. Not from a business perspective and not from a social perspective either.

This is a step in the right direction but there's certainly more to be done.

MM, whilst that (bold bit) is true, it does raise two questions, about which many PHD theses probably already have been, and many more will be, written:

1) If the objectifying items (*sexist, and racist as well) are the subject of legitimate historical study - items such as propaganda posters, or aircraft nose art - because they form part of the history of the era under study, is that an acceptable academic endeavour?

2) To what extent should we impose, today, the social standards of our era, on the study of previous historical era, and the actions of the persons of those times? This is sometimes I think referred to as the "black armband" view of history.

I'll start off with noting that this is a misdirection - the issue raised in this instance is not academic treatment of these topics but their use in the vernacular (if you will), and in a non-academic context.

1) Of course.

2) There is a distinct difference in my mind between presentism as an issue in literary and historical analysis and examining history from our own moral perspective. History needs to be understood in its own context, there needs to be thinking directed at it in relation to modern values.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You'll get little sympathy from me, I'm afraid.

Routine objectification of women has certainly been one of the more disdainful elements of this wider community, and it's certainly not an attractive or welcoming feature. Not from a business perspective and not from a social perspective either.

This is a step in the right direction but there's certainly more to be done.

MM, whilst that (bold bit) is true, it does raise two questions, about which many PHD theses probably already have been, and many more will be, written:

1) If the objectifying items (*sexist, and racist as well) are the subject of legitimate historical study - items such as propaganda posters, or aircraft nose art - because they form part of the history of the era under study, is that an acceptable academic endeavour?

2) To what extent should we impose, today, the social standards of our era, on the study of previous historical era, and the actions of the persons of those times? This is sometimes I think referred to as the "black armband" view of history.

I'll start off with noting that this is a misdirection - the issue raised in this instance is not academic treatment of these topics but their use in the vernacular (if you will), and in a non-academic context.

1) Of course.

2) There is a distinct difference in my mind between presentism as an issue in literary and historical analysis and examining history from our own moral perspective. History needs to be understood in its own context, there needs to be thinking directed at it in relation to modern values.

MM, you always think a psychologist - sometimes you need to think like a lawyer [;)].

If we apply your answer to my question 1, in principle, to the study of professionally photographed pin up posters of attractive women, in, say, the war years, shouldn't we acknowledge that despite what view we have about them by today's standards -as sexist or gender profiling or whatever- it's still a valid historical study. And remains a piece of factual history - unless we go all 1984 and start re-writing the past.

Case in point: In AE, what picture do you see in the save game selection screen? Should that now be excised from the game in accordance with this new diktat?

[tolsdorff]

ORIGINAL: littleike

After have seen a a thread as Things to ponder closed without a word of discussion from mister Edmon (never known before)
without no one has been offended and seen that in this forum pin ups are considered an offense to common sense of chasteness
and that someone can close what he wants whenever it wants, due to my B-17 collection of nose art that i want to be free to
collect and share i will no more post here until that thread will not be reopenede and pin ups posting would not be considered an illegal action.

Thanks to all i have shared my time from many years.

Best regards

Littleike

yeah, I agree. Respect is 1 thing, but good old sexual Censorship, for no reason whatsoever, is more than a turn in the wrong direction.
It happened in the past before. For instance during the Inquisition (!) in Mexico in the 1800's. Going back to those days just doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction at all. Feels more like 10 steps back.

Ever since Canoerebel was pestered away more than a year ago by some of the extremists here, (no one specifically comes to mind.) things have been going quietly downhill and there is apparently no stopping it.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Ian R




MM, whilst that (bold bit) is true, it does raise two questions, about which many PHD theses probably already have been, and many more will be, written:

1) If the objectifying items (*sexist, and racist as well) are the subject of legitimate historical study - items such as propaganda posters, or aircraft nose art - because they form part of the history of the era under study, is that an acceptable academic endeavour?

2) To what extent should we impose, today, the social standards of our era, on the study of previous historical era, and the actions of the persons of those times? This is sometimes I think referred to as the "black armband" view of history.

I'll start off with noting that this is a misdirection - the issue raised in this instance is not academic treatment of these topics but their use in the vernacular (if you will), and in a non-academic context.

1) Of course.

2) There is a distinct difference in my mind between presentism as an issue in literary and historical analysis and examining history from our own moral perspective. History needs to be understood in its own context, there needs to be thinking directed at it in relation to modern values.

MM, you always think a psychologist - sometimes you need to think like a lawyer [;)].

If we apply your answer to my question 1, in principle, to the study of professionally photographed pin up posters of attractive women, in, say, the war years, shouldn't we acknowledge that despite what view we have about them by today's standards -as sexist or gender profiling or whatever- it's still a valid historical study. And remains a piece of factual history - unless we go all 1984 and start re-writing the past.

Case in point: In AE, what picture do you see in the save game selection screen? Should that now be excised from the game in accordance with this new diktat?

I'd forgotten about that, actually. I've used art mods for years now that give a darker theme overall.

Again, of course. Pin up posters are a part of the cultural history of the war. It is appropriate that such an image features within a work of digital art (let's leave "are games art" to one side) in an appropriate context, the same as similar material in other works of art (painting, films, other video games).

The inclusion of such an image is not a free pass for individuals on the forum to indulge in the gender views of that period, nor to indulge in behaviour that is (at best) unseemly and contributes to an unfriendly atmosphere for video game players who are female.

Let's not try to dress that up as "a valid historical study", as what we've seen on the forum is a million miles from that.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

ORIGINAL: littleike

After have seen a a thread as Things to ponder closed without a word of discussion from mister Edmon (never known before)
without no one has been offended and seen that in this forum pin ups are considered an offense to common sense of chasteness
and that someone can close what he wants whenever it wants, due to my B-17 collection of nose art that i want to be free to
collect and share i will no more post here until that thread will not be reopenede and pin ups posting would not be considered an illegal action.

Thanks to all i have shared my time from many years.

Best regards

Littleike

yeah, I agree. Respect is 1 thing, but good old sexual Censorship, for no reason whatsoever, is more than a turn in the wrong direction.
It happened in the past before. For instance during the Inquisition (!) in Mexico in the 1800's. Going back to those days just doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction at all. Feels more like 10 steps back.

Ever since Canoerebel was pestered away more than a year ago by some of the extremists here, (no one specifically comes to mind.) things have been going quietly downhill and there is apparently no stopping it.

1. I do believe that the overall approach to the Matrix forums is aimed at being family friendly. Do you really feel that sexual content has a place in such a setting.

2. Did you read that link before you posted it? I ask as the conclusion covers that the inquisition had a relaxed approach to such sexual imagery vis a vis prohibited books. I wonder if you can expand on what point you were trying to make, as I seem to have missed it, and it gives the appears of having put "inquisition sexual images" into Google Scholar and mindlessly posting the first link you came across.

3. I'm not quite sure how you can take the view that maybe not objectifying women on the forum represents taking a backward step, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

[rogueusmc]

Who is Edmon anyway?

[Bo Rearguard]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

Who is Edmon anyway?

He's a member of the Matrix Games Staff who recently locked the OT...Things to ponder thread.

[rogueusmc]

I clicked and looked at his profile and I didn't see where it said he was a moderator anywhere?

[Bo Rearguard]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

I clicked and looked at his profile and I didn't see where it said he was a moderator anywhere?

I think having the power to lock a thread is pretty much the definition of a moderator.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

I clicked and looked at his profile and I didn't see where it said he was a moderator anywhere?

The General forum . . .

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

ORIGINAL: littleike

After have seen a a thread as Things to ponder closed without a word of discussion from mister Edmon (never known before)
without no one has been offended and seen that in this forum pin ups are considered an offense to common sense of chasteness
and that someone can close what he wants whenever it wants, due to my B-17 collection of nose art that i want to be free to
collect and share i will no more post here until that thread will not be reopenede and pin ups posting would not be considered an illegal action.

Thanks to all i have shared my time from many years.

Best regards

Littleike

yeah, I agree. Respect is 1 thing, but good old sexual Censorship, for no reason whatsoever, is more than a turn in the wrong direction.
It happened in the past before. For instance during the Inquisition (!) in Mexico in the 1800's. Going back to those days just doesn't seem to be a step in the right direction at all. Feels more like 10 steps back.

Ever since Canoerebel was pestered away more than a year ago by some of the extremists here, (no one specifically comes to mind.) things have been going quietly downhill and there is apparently no stopping it.

1. I do believe that the overall approach to the Matrix forums is aimed at being family friendly. Do you really feel that sexual content has a place in such a setting.

2. Did you read that link before you posted it? I ask as the conclusion covers that the inquisition had a relaxed approach to such sexual imagery vis a vis prohibited books. I wonder if you can expand on what point you were trying to make, as I seem to have missed it, and it gives the appears of having put "inquisition sexual images" into Google Scholar and mindlessly posting the first link you came across.

3. I'm not quite sure how you can take the view that maybe not objectifying women on the forum represents taking a backward step, but would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Let us face it, if it weren't for human sexual activity then there would be no family at all. In fact, the human race would go extinct.

I changed my avatar picture from Roza so I would not run afoul of the censors. But this nose art was allowed:

fb.asp?m=5121230

[Kull]

Guys,

I believe it was made clear that pin-up shots of women, whatever the era they are from, are not allowed.

This thread will be locked. If you have done this anywhere else, I heartily suggest that you delete such posts, as repeat offenders will be getting official warnings.

I don't want to be the bad guy my friends, so please don't force my hand.

You are welcome to make a new social thread, but keep it clean.

Thanks,
Edmon

Hey Edmon! Come and get me:

[Erik Rutins]

Well, I just saw this, so let me answer a few questions.

First, Edmon is one of our forum moderators, though he may not have been in this sub-forum much.

Second, yes we did decide that threads like the old "Australian Beauties" in the General Discussion forum (and pin-ups here) were inappropriate in terms of being family friendly and fostering a welcoming environment for women in the wargaming community. You can see a pretty big discussion about all that which happened in this thread in the General Discussion forum: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5082641

In that regard, Edmon was acting to enforce our forum rules on a high level of decency.

If you read through the thread linked above to the end, I think you'll get a good understanding of all the different points of view on this, including my own point of view.

I might not have locked that thread entirely, but Edmon was acting within the rules in stating that pinups are against the rules and encouraging you to start a new thread focused on pretty much anything else.

The goal of all this is to make sure this is a family friendly, apolitical and high decency place where all who are interested in these kinds of games can share discussion and camaraderie relating to these games.

The forum rules themselves, which all agree to when registering to post here, are as follows:

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