A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

[rockmedic109]

I've read many posts lately about the rudeness of Alfred. And I've read many defenders of Alfred. I was never a target of his acidic wit and once did a forum search for his posts to get more up to date on the game and learn little nuggets of info to use. Even against the AI I need all the help I can get. It's sad that his knowledge base is gone. That it was his own fault makes it worse.

Were all his posts derogatory? Did the rudeness come in waves? I don't remember them being full time but my not being a target of them might color my memory.

Makes me wonder if there were outside life influences that may have contributed to his problematic posts. Certainly no excuse, but it makes me wonder.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

I've read many posts lately about the rudeness of Alfred. And I've read many defenders of Alfred. I was never a target of his acidic wit and once did a forum search for his posts to get more up to date on the game and learn little nuggets of info to use. Even against the AI I need all the help I can get. It's sad that his knowledge base is gone. That it was his own fault makes it worse.

Were all his posts derogatory? Did the rudeness come in waves? I don't remember them being full time but my not being a target of them might color my memory.

Makes me wonder if there were outside life influences that may have contributed to his problematic posts. Certainly no excuse, but it makes me wonder.

You can still look up his posts and guides but his inputs are no longer available.

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Edmon

I would like people to understand, that my position in Slitherine is the Community Manager, largely for our Steam communities. Steam being, by far, our biggest area with the most gamers.

Well this is the WITP-AE forum and not Steam. So stay away from here in the future and guard your "gold standard" at steam.

Or if you want to be involved with AE then help w/the (hopefully coming) last offcial patch to correct some issus and patch some of the still remaining bugs. That would be helpful, Herr Edomite[:D]

And then if this is done well, we can consider you being a mod here again [:)]
How long did you play this game btw.?

[Alpha77]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
I hearby nominate the so-named as the Matrix "Hobby Ambassador" for WIPTAE:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

[&:]

What is this crap about, the PDF Erik posted? Is Matrixgames some kind of millitary organisation? Cause I googled some of the names in the PDF and it lead to some millitary / natsec...

Among them this "girl squad" with a game or whatever named "herd mentallity"

"Herd Mentality is available to for the entirety of NatSecGirlSquad to enable force wide connectivity while also supporting hyper specific needs. "

WTF do they mean [&:]

See source here:
https://nsgscon.com/herd-mentality

Edit, well reading some of the linked forum thread, I predict that we can kiss MG goodbye soon. As if it was not going downhill already in the last 2-3 years...I do not even know for sure what Herr Rutins is babbling there at all..[:'(]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget



Problem is that Alfred often responded that X is wrong and the position is instead Y in a patronizing, arrogant and schoolmasterly "I know it all and better than you" way that was often rude, bullying and offending.

Care to give some examples?

Alfred's responses were direct and succinct, but to consider that as being the behaviour you describe simply reveals ignorance of working with individuals with a high degree of knowledge in a subject.

Yes, he knows almost all and better than the rest (although he is neither all-knowing nor infallible), but he has little appreciation for lesser minds than his own and for those who do not live up to his own high standards of research.

First, to point out that "his own high standards of research" implies that there are other standards of research, which is rarely the case.

Predominant instead is either:

1) zero effort questions that a cursory search of the forum, manual or FAQ threads would have answered
2) explanations/justifications involving a preconceived notion of how the game "should" handle X mechanic, with no effort to actually establish if this was the case.

Secondly, Alfred was always willing to engage with the spirit of a question that was asked. See innumerable considered responses where the author had the willingness to approach the question with a genuine open mind, and without clinging to a preconception and with sufficient maturity to accept that their knowledge was limited and a willingness to learn from others.

I had intended to go on at some length, but I think that your post, in principle, captures the effect that dual poisoning of pettiness and jealousy can have where individuals are unable to accept that they might be wrong, and that someone might know more about a topic than they do.

No, I don't care to give some examples because it would be a waste of my time looking them up - you have made it abundantly clear that you will consider anything Alfred has posted as merely "direct and succinct". It does not seem to cross your mind that what is "direct and succinct" in your perception might be rude and offensive in the perception of someone else. You are wrong about your insistence that all people critisizing Alfred suffer from an inferiority complex, unable to accept that Alfred may know more and better. Many people - me included - fully appreciate Alfred's knowledge. But superior knowledge doesn't mean automatically being beyond reproach. The forum is full of comments about Alfred being helpful but gruff. But you have put Alfred on a pedestal and you are unable to accept that your hero may have sinned. I also intented to go on at some length about this but DesertWolf101 has summed it up nicely. Concerning your insults - ignorance, pettiness, jealousy - I'm still laughing.

Odd, how in the above posts I predicted that evidence would be hard it materialising. What a surprise to see that prediction come true!

I won't rise to the obvious bait regarding hero worship etc, in so far to say that the collective memory of the forum is evidently very short.

It's certainly not encouraging to see the alacrity with which forum users have turned to disparaging Alfred as soon as the possibility of Alfred giving an account of his own actions is removed.

What a brave collection we have on this forum.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

No, Alfred was misliked because he was, with exceptional consistency, right and they were wrong.

No level of saccharin coating would have mitigated this, as you'll find those taking that view certainly lacked the maturity to accept that there might be someone out there with more insight into the topic than they possessed.

LOL NO NOPE NADA COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS

Can you even hear yourself? This has to be the most pompous, self righteous thing I have ever heard and goes straight to the root of the whole problem. I will give you one thing your loyalty to the so-named is astounding.

You are basically saying everyone else is an idiot and the so-named is God who deserves to rule the forum no matter what end of story because he is always right and everyone else is always wrong.

I could give a damn if I am always wrong and the so-named is always right. Never was the issue and never has been the issue. You just don't get it and apparently never will. Everyone else is wrong, Matrix is wrong, and you select few are the rulers of the world.

I love this game. I love learning about this game. I am happy to be told I am wrong. That is why I ask questions on this forum. To learn and discuss. I used to love coming to these forums back in the day.

But when I decided like so many others to come back after 8, 10 years from UV and WITP to WITPAE that began with the quite abrupt appearance of the so-named to anything I asked about or posted about. It became the so-named personal mission to go after every post I made. I no longer enjoyed coming to the forums or participating as so many others have said. People just prefer to lurk now because it is easier. And newbies like Markshot? Forget about it not even welcome from their very first post.

You see people saying they are afraid to even post anymore for fear of attack. That is the type of forum you want? Sounds like you select few just want your own private club to rule the way you see fit Matrix games and customers be damned. If you cannot see that and if that is what you want here then you cannot be helped. Good luck with that.

I hearby nominate the so-named as the Matrix "Hobby Ambassador" for WIPTAE:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

To be candid, you've seriously misattributed the causality. I don't think Alfred responded to every post you made, but there was a period where you certainly made a lot of posts.

I'm not particularly interested in refreshing my memory as to the contents of those posts, but I'd certainly be surprised if they departed from the trends I've outlined previously.

[Sardaukar]

Kind of amusing to have Alfred accused of rudeness by personal attacks towards him...which is by the way against forum rules...[:'(]

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Kind of amusing to have Alfred accused of rudeness by personal attacks towards him...which is by the way against forum rules...[:'(]

True! As always.

Erik, thank you for the original post. I'll always have fondness for matrix games and the decency which you've dealt with us consumers.

I'd like to add the past week has left me with questions regarding direction you all are headed. Hopefully we can all learn and he better for it.

Very sorry for you and your family in dealing with your father's failing health.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Care to give some examples?

Alfred's responses were direct and succinct, but to consider that as being the behaviour you describe simply reveals ignorance of working with individuals with a high degree of knowledge in a subject.



First, to point out that "his own high standards of research" implies that there are other standards of research, which is rarely the case.

Predominant instead is either:

1) zero effort questions that a cursory search of the forum, manual or FAQ threads would have answered
2) explanations/justifications involving a preconceived notion of how the game "should" handle X mechanic, with no effort to actually establish if this was the case.

Secondly, Alfred was always willing to engage with the spirit of a question that was asked. See innumerable considered responses where the author had the willingness to approach the question with a genuine open mind, and without clinging to a preconception and with sufficient maturity to accept that their knowledge was limited and a willingness to learn from others.

I had intended to go on at some length, but I think that your post, in principle, captures the effect that dual poisoning of pettiness and jealousy can have where individuals are unable to accept that they might be wrong, and that someone might know more about a topic than they do.

No, I don't care to give some examples because it would be a waste of my time looking them up - you have made it abundantly clear that you will consider anything Alfred has posted as merely "direct and succinct". It does not seem to cross your mind that what is "direct and succinct" in your perception might be rude and offensive in the perception of someone else. You are wrong about your insistence that all people critisizing Alfred suffer from an inferiority complex, unable to accept that Alfred may know more and better. Many people - me included - fully appreciate Alfred's knowledge. But superior knowledge doesn't mean automatically being beyond reproach. The forum is full of comments about Alfred being helpful but gruff. But you have put Alfred on a pedestal and you are unable to accept that your hero may have sinned. I also intented to go on at some length about this but DesertWolf101 has summed it up nicely. Concerning your insults - ignorance, pettiness, jealousy - I'm still laughing.

Odd, how in the above posts I predicted that evidence would be hard it materialising. What a surprise to see that prediction come true!

I won't rise to the obvious bait regarding hero worship etc, in so far to say that the collective memory of the forum is evidently very short.

It's certainly not encouraging to see the alacrity with which forum users have turned to disparaging Alfred as soon as the possibility of Alfred giving an account of his own actions is removed.

What a brave collection we have on this forum.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

No, Alfred was misliked because he was, with exceptional consistency, right and they were wrong.

No level of saccharin coating would have mitigated this, as you'll find those taking that view certainly lacked the maturity to accept that there might be someone out there with more insight into the topic than they possessed.

LOL NO NOPE NADA COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS

Can you even hear yourself? This has to be the most pompous, self righteous thing I have ever heard and goes straight to the root of the whole problem. I will give you one thing your loyalty to the so-named is astounding.

You are basically saying everyone else is an idiot and the so-named is God who deserves to rule the forum no matter what end of story because he is always right and everyone else is always wrong.

I could give a damn if I am always wrong and the so-named is always right. Never was the issue and never has been the issue. You just don't get it and apparently never will. Everyone else is wrong, Matrix is wrong, and you select few are the rulers of the world.

I love this game. I love learning about this game. I am happy to be told I am wrong. That is why I ask questions on this forum. To learn and discuss. I used to love coming to these forums back in the day.

But when I decided like so many others to come back after 8, 10 years from UV and WITP to WITPAE that began with the quite abrupt appearance of the so-named to anything I asked about or posted about. It became the so-named personal mission to go after every post I made. I no longer enjoyed coming to the forums or participating as so many others have said. People just prefer to lurk now because it is easier. And newbies like Markshot? Forget about it not even welcome from their very first post.

You see people saying they are afraid to even post anymore for fear of attack. That is the type of forum you want? Sounds like you select few just want your own private club to rule the way you see fit Matrix games and customers be damned. If you cannot see that and if that is what you want here then you cannot be helped. Good luck with that.

I hearby nominate the so-named as the Matrix "Hobby Ambassador" for WIPTAE:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=1&key=

To be candid, you've seriously misattributed the causality. I don't think Alfred responded to every post you made, but there was a period where you certainly made a lot of posts.

I'm not particularly interested in refreshing my memory as to the contents of those posts, but I'd certainly be surprised if they departed from the trends I've outlined previously.

Evidence actually was posted in this thread. But you have posted no evidence yourself while calling out others to do so. Which is called hypocrisy.

And once again you would be wrong about the causality. I don't post threads to be right or wrong. I post questions to discuss. I don't care if I am wrong about anything. My beef with the so-named was never about right or wrong because that was never the issue ever. My questions and the discussions within were not debates they were questions to discuss. I have never once ever said the so-named was wrong about any detail of WITPAE.

The so-named just loved coming into my threads for no other reason than to just be an jerk. I got my answers from others in the threads that were actually helpful and rarely from the so-named. Not about me being right or wrong or the so-named being right or wrong. Just coming into my threads just to declare superiority. Just as a select few others supporting the so-named continue to do.

I made the move from UV and WITP to WITPAE after 10 years starting over again and then starting my first PBEM ever so yes I had a lot of questions getting going again. How dare I do that in this forum. The so-named was so right to chastise me. I should have bowed down to it cowered in a corner and left the forum like so many others have to avoid our great Hobby Ambassador.

[Sardaukar]

When it cömes to other people posts, this:

"If it is endurable, then endure it. Stop complaining." -Marcus Aurelius

There is also green ball button to stop showing someone's posts.

[Sardaukar]

*double*

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Kind of amusing to have Alfred accused of rudeness by personal attacks towards him...which is by the way against forum rules...[:'(]

warspite1

Well I said I wouldn’t comment further. The problem with that sort of announcement is that then one or more people may post something that can’t be ignored….

You don't reference any specific posts and so assume you are including all posts that relate to Alfred.

Mind_Messing posted (post 5) a response to Erik’s original post to say that he totally disagreed with Matrix actions regarding the week long ban on Alfred and went into reasons why – effectively Matrix are wrong, they’ve mis-represented the situation and mis-applied their own moderation policy (acknowledged re the lack of warning by Erik), they’ve wrongly refused to allow him back after a week (despite Erik explaining exactly why) and Alfred, whose actions have always been beyond reproach (according to M_M) was the victim here. Apparently, according to him, Alfred wasn't rude it was always all the other guys fault, and besides rudeness is a 'social construct' so there [8|].

That totally one-sided response should not be allowed to go unanswered. Subsequent posts have disagreed with M_M’s rosy view of Alfred's behaviour and naturally give reasons why. My responses have not been designed as personal attacks, but are posts to counter M_M’s opinion. In providing an alternate opinion, Alfred’s failings are necessarily aired. Are you suggesting in your comment above that only M_M has the right to give his rosy view on this and that no one who disagrees may provide an alternate opinion? I don’t believe that of you, and that makes your post disappointing.

I am not trawling through the forum to get specific incidences as ‘proof’ as M_M unhelpfully suggests. All long time members of the forum know, and look at the names and length of time on the forum some of these individuals have. What, are all these comments made up?? The number of people that have come forward says much, as does Matrix making the decision to place a temporary ban on him for one such incident. And not before time.

Erik has said it is up to Alfred as to whether he returns to the forum. It is not as though he is being kept away against his will.

[Sardaukar]

There are couple of posters who have had kind of feud with Alfred. Who they are is kind of obvious from posts. You are not one of them, warspite1 [8D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

There are couple of posters who have had kind of feud with Alfred. Who they are is kind of obvious from posts. You are not one of them, warspite1 [8D]

warspite1

Ah okay - but just for the sake of clarity and good order - I too have had my 'moments' with Alfred. I hope (and of course believe) that I am mature enough that these have not clouded my judgement here.

The disgreements we've had are not to do with this game, but more generally. However, my beef with Alfred is not that he and I disagreed on some things - its the unbearable rudeness to others he often exhibited.

We all have our lines in the sand. Rudeness is one of mine.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

There are couple of posters who have had kind of feud with Alfred. Who they are is kind of obvious from posts. You are not one of them, warspite1 [8D]

warspite1

Ah okay - but just for the sake of clarity and good order - I too have had my 'moments' with Alfred. I hope (and of course believe) that I am mature enough that these have not clouded my judgement here.

The disgreements we've had are not to do with this game, but more generally. However, my beef with Alfred is not that he and I disagreed on some things - its the unbearable rudeness to others he often exhibited.

We all have our lines in the sand. Rudeness is one of mine.

Fair enough. Alfred's cutting wit was too acerbic for you. Maybe coming from Oz I am used to that sort of thing.

I too have a line in the sand - it's being told by someone who disagrees with a view I hold, sociological or whatever, that to hold the view I have, indicates that I am mentally ill, or a 'Nazi' fascist or innuendo that I am another poster's homosexual partner (delivered as a homohobic slur) or similar personal slurs.

All of those things have happened here. The posters who did that, are still posting (albeit one of them got a ban recently). I have made my position on this "gaslighting" clear to Erik in a PM many weeks ago, and am not going to post it here - but I give Erik permission to post my PM to him in it's entirety, should he wish to do so.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

There are couple of posters who have had kind of feud with Alfred. Who they are is kind of obvious from posts. You are not one of them, warspite1 [8D]

warspite1

Ah okay - but just for the sake of clarity and good order - I too have had my 'moments' with Alfred. I hope (and of course believe) that I am mature enough that these have not clouded my judgement here.

The disgreements we've had are not to do with this game, but more generally. However, my beef with Alfred is not that he and I disagreed on some things - its the unbearable rudeness to others he often exhibited.

We all have our lines in the sand. Rudeness is one of mine.

Fair enough. Alfred's cutting wit was too acerbic for you. Maybe coming from Oz I am used to that sort of thing.

I too have a line in the sand - it's being told by someone who disagrees with a view I hold, sociological or whatever, that to hold the view I have, indicates that I am mentally ill, or a 'Nazi' fascist or innuendo that I am another poster's homosexual partner (delivered as a homohobic slur) or similar personal slurs.

All of those things have happened here. The posters who did that, are still posting (albeit one of them got a ban recently). I have made my position on this "gaslighting" clear to Erik in a PM many weeks ago, and am not going to post it here - but I give Erik permission to post my PM to him in it's entirety, should he wish to do so.

warspite1

Two things from this.

Re your second and third paragraph - I of course absolutely agree, and all posters here who don't engage in that activity would do so.

But re your first post, why do you say that Alfred's posts were meant to be 'witty'. Acerbic? Yes, but there was no trace of humour evident when engaged in putting down posters. Was his response to MarkShot witty? If so, where was the humour?

Too acerbic for me? Yes, and many others (as evidenced here), including Erik. If you were happy to be on the receiving end then no problem.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Ah okay - but just for the sake of clarity and good order - I too have had my 'moments' with Alfred. I hope (and of course believe) that I am mature enough that these have not clouded my judgement here.

The disgreements we've had are not to do with this game, but more generally. However, my beef with Alfred is not that he and I disagreed on some things - its the unbearable rudeness to others he often exhibited.

We all have our lines in the sand. Rudeness is one of mine.

Fair enough. Alfred's cutting wit was too acerbic for you. Maybe coming from Oz I am used to that sort of thing.

I too have a line in the sand - it's being told by someone who disagrees with a view I hold, sociological or whatever, that to hold the view I have, indicates that I am mentally ill, or a 'Nazi' fascist or innuendo that I am another poster's homosexual partner (delivered as a homohobic slur) or similar personal slurs.

All of those things have happened here. The posters who did that, are still posting (albeit one of them got a ban recently). I have made my position on this "gaslighting" clear to Erik in a PM many weeks ago, and am not going to post it here - but I give Erik permission to post my PM to him in it's entirety, should he wish to do so.

warspite1

Two things from this.

Re your second and third paragraph - I of course absolutely agree, and all posters here who don't engage in that activity would do so.

But re your first post, why do you say that Alfred's posts were meant to be 'witty'. Acerbic? Yes, but there was no trace of humour evident when engaged in putting down posters. Was his response to MarkShot witty? If so, where was the humour?

Too acerbic for me? Yes, and many others (as evidenced here), including Erik. If you were happy to be on the receiving end then no problem.

As I said, fair enough, it's not for me to dictate what opinion you should hold.

[;)]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Kind of amusing to have Alfred accused of rudeness by personal attacks towards him...which is by the way against forum rules...[:'(]

Curious, isn't it?

I do wonder if we'll see any consequences for such behaviour for those involved, in line with the norm that has been established.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Odd, how in the above posts I predicted that evidence would be hard it materialising. What a surprise to see that prediction come true!

I won't rise to the obvious bait regarding hero worship etc, in so far to say that the collective memory of the forum is evidently very short.

It's certainly not encouraging to see the alacrity with which forum users have turned to disparaging Alfred as soon as the possibility of Alfred giving an account of his own actions is removed.

What a brave collection we have on this forum.

I'm not baiting you into anything, I don't have a short memory and I'm not disparaging Alfred either - please don't misinterpret and distort my posts deliberately and stop putting words in my mouth. I fully recognise the value of Alfred's posts and his superior knowledge, he is a true "forum hero" and I have no feud or agenda against him. The difference between your opinion and mine is that apparently you see nothing wrong at all with Alfred, while I think that even a hero can have weaknesses. Being gifted with superior intellecual capacities shouldn't provide a free pass to treat others with contempt. Concerning the evidence you don't see materialising - that is a question of time restraints, not a lack of evidence. Alfred has made 6000+ posts, I don't have the time to search through that number of posts, and besides it is not even practically possible due to the restrictions of the forum search engine (max 300 results for example). His treatments of ScottyG, Alpha77, Tanaka, MarkShot are a few examples that come to mind, you can search the threads yourself. If this does not suffice, the ask yourself why - as warspite1 pointed out - other forumites have voiced the opinion that Alfred has been gruff, rude, arrogant etc. Don't get me wrong, most of Alfred's post are perfectly ok - but he has crossed the line of what is acceptable more than once. You may say that Alfred's victims have been asking for it by not doing their homework properly - but that is where our opinions start to differ. Yes, not doing your homework is a common failure, but that doesn't mean Alfred has the right to denigrate the culprits in a way that basically boils down to "you are stupid and I am the king". Even if it is true, Alfred could have chosen to express himself with more retraint and humbleness, or simply remained silent. He did not, and this stains his reputation and led to his ban.

[mattj78]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Demonstrably false? So you use the example of local tipping custom to evidence rudeness in conversing (by word or written form). That is not helpful and one may say disingenuous.

I have conversed with a great many on this forum, Britons, Americans, Germans, French, Japanese, Russians... the list goes on. It is not difficult to make sufficient effort to ensure that one's comments aren't seen as rude. On occasion it may not work - but that is the exception to the rule.

Having had such a wide conversation, then you certainly should have noted certain differences in conversational patterns and norms.

If you wish a direct example, consider the directness in conversation that you find common in many European cultures, which can often be perceived as being abrupt to the point of rudeness in the Anglosphere. Inverted, the tendency for the Anglosphere to prevaricate and approach topics indirectly can be perceived as dissimulation and rude as a result.

So many people find Alfred rude because... well he was, for a great many of his posts, insufferably rude.

No, Alfred was misliked because he was, with exceptional consistency, right and they were wrong.

No level of saccharin coating would have mitigated this, as you'll find those taking that view certainly lacked the maturity to accept that there might be someone out there with more insight into the topic than they possessed.

Simple. Very simple. There was no reason WHATSOEVER for Alfred to write post 2 in response to MarkShot's post 1. As said, even Lokasenna was triggered to remark upon it. It was rude, unhelpful and not a little unhinged.

I'll disagree here; the opening question, when combined with previous questions and the admission of not buying the game certainly gave an impression of being vexatious. Combined with the fact that the information itself was relatively low hanging fruit simply adds to this.

I don't doubt - as has been made clear - that Alfred felt he had grounds for doubting the quality of the video. That is not the point. The point was quite clear and quite simple. The response to Tanaka's post was succinct.

"I'm Alfred, my intellect is colossal and you? YOU are stupid. You come here to post about a video YOU thought was helpful. How dare you. It was rubbish and you are clearly unable to comprehend this simple point.

There is simply no need for it.

Now here's a question, have you ever seen Alfred chest-thumping regarding intellect? Good luck finding any.

The sentiment expressed in the initial promotion of that YouTube video series was completely out of sync with the actual quality of the content.

Alfred highlighted how newer players evidently seemed to be fooled by this, but any experienced players would be able to discern the truth.

It's a well known trend at this point that AE doesn't lend itself well to long format YouTube videos and that the quality suffers as a result.

Again, not sure if you feel the need for this sentiment to have further saccharine applied to it.

Superficial level? Well I guess it depends on what importance you place on civility and treated people with respect.

Ah, now we get at the rub of the matter. Consider telling someone that they are incorrect. How do you balance that with civility and respect?

Note the above comments on saccharine.

It's a lose/lose. Nobody likes to be told their wrong, regardless of the setting. Much easier to handwave it away as "Alfred is rude" than to have a deeper reflection that will challenge established notions about knowledge of game mechanics.

My mistake. I didn't realise that you canvassed ADM, Erik and others on that thread to ensure there were no PM's behind the scenes. Clearly you have all the facts about that thread and what transpired between all parties.

I shouldn't need to canvass anyone. See previous posts in the other thread regarding Matrix policy re: warnings. Do you see that being enacted in the thread in question?

Worth pointing out that there were others that made similar comments in the immediate aftermath of that thread.

Quite simply Alfred was never ever wrong about anything - and his subsequent comments to Erik confirm that.

This may shock the system somewhat, but there are people that think before they post online. Alfred certainly was one of those.

Can you recall an instance where Alfred was wrong? In all my years on the forum, I can recall maybeone borderline incident involving night bombing, but even then Alfred had the correct understanding and a missing text string was the real issue.

warspite1

Well I am not going to engage in further pointless back and forth with you. We each have our thoughts on this and I am sure neither will be swayed by the other.

Moreover, I am certainly not going to waste any more time on someone who isn't even here. It is clear you believe Alfred beyond reproach, a character who was never wrong about anything and certainly never rude to anyone.

But of course that is nonsense and you clearly believe that certain people should be allowed to get away with rudeness (just because they happen to know about a game) - and/or because of their culture????

All I will say is in response to "can you recall an instance when Alfred was wrong". In terms of the game. No - I don't know enough about the game to know if he was wrong or not, but I would guess he was rarely if ever wrong. Do I know of Alfred being wrong about history generally? Yes, and on quite a number of occasions.

But this thread isn't about one person, so I'll leave it at that other than to say that its funny that so many consider him rude, Erik considered his rudeness worthy of a ban, but apparently he never was.....

lets not forget Alfred is welcome back to the forum any time he likes all he has to do is follow the rules he refuses to do so i think that says enough in it self every one should remember that when defending him

[mattj78]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

1) To state the obvious, Alfred is extremely knowledgeable about the game and has contributed greatly to our shared understanding of how it works behind the hood.
2) Alfred has been nothing but kind to me since I arrived on the forum. He has been crucial in helping me comprehend the game mechanics through his previous public posts, his numerous direct posts on my AARs, and his private messages. My initial enjoyment and success in the game owe a considerable amount to him. He has also been kind, generous, and effusive in his praise.
3) Alfred has been actively and unfairly attacked in the past, often in crude and uncalled for ways. His contributions have also been pilloried and underappreciated by those who knew a lot less about how the game worked. On numerous occasions his responses where fully justified within their context.
4) Both Alfred and I live in the same country and I am very well aware of what is considered rude here and what is not.

With the context of the above points, I will not hesitate to state that there is no doubt in my mind that Alfred has in the past been unjustly and unnecessarily rude, especially to new members who were asking innocent if perhaps ignorant questions. I noticed this long before he was banned, and I regret not privately messaging him about it.

None of us are perfect and Alfred is no exception. The fact that he was underappreciated does not absolve him of all responsibility. It is my sincere wish that he would come back to the forum and the lack of his presence is a detriment to all of us. However, Alfred also needs to be able to see where he was wrong and to be able to accept Erik's generous olive branch and accept the forum's rules. Civility is a precondition for all of us, no matter our knowledge.

This is the best post i have read in the last few days well done love your aar to congrats