Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal

[Jango32]

So technically you are correct that they get permanently destroyed if Stalingrad is captured, however in practice it is scripted that the Soviets will always get an equal number of factories in Tizny Nigal to the factories in Stalingrad, with an additional script that destroys the factories in Stalingrad in case it is never captured.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Jango32

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.

They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.

My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Even after advancing the turn the Moscow production is not there. I can advance a few more to test if they show up after so many turns.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Maybe there is a delay for the IL2's to come back? Or maybe they are gone. It is one or the other. I believe they are gone.

[RC01214]

If I remember the editor values for the Stalingrad T34 factories correctly, they are removed at the historical loss date, with several other T34 factories elsewhere expanding to compensate for their loss shortly afterwards.

The vehicle (truck) factories there and elsewhere are permanently lost if captured, but on map production for soviets is not that high for a major difference to be noticed. Most Soviet vehicles come from Lend lease.

Armaments and heavy industry factories seem to vary by location: much of Kharkov is evacuated if captured or on the historical loss date, but for Odessa and Minsk, they seem to be permanently lost. Perhaps no one is noticing any changes because Soviet production in the Urals and Moscow is high enough for the losses to not matter?

Oil, fuel, and resources are only damaged, never lost or evacuated. I think it was not physically possible to move these IRL and Germany had plans to use them and deny them to the Soviets via conquest of the Caucasus.

Take all this with a grain of salt however; I may not be accounting for any hard coded moves or compensations for losses.

[RedJohn]

The current model is more realistic insofar as the Soviets would indeed not just never replace industry lost, but it directly counteracts against the implemented VP system which is now the only argument for not just running away rapidly as the Soviets.

Given the potential snowball you can achieve in 42 and 43 though, I don't see the VP system as a viable system that incentivizes players enough to defend forward, and would thus welcome suggestions like OP's to incentvize the Germans to go for cities and the Soviets to defend those cities.

[Jango32]

Maybe a compromise solution would be that Soviets permanently lose half the factories in a hex if overrun before evacuation.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Jango32

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


Capturing Stalingrad "will" destroy the T-34 Chassis factories that are located there if the hex is taken by the Germans.

They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.

My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

...

Jango is right, yes the T34s in Stalingrad are destroyed on loss but are then replaced elsewhere. You are right, the Il-2 and other production in Moscow is a permanent loss.

The key being that the latter were never historically lost while Stalingrad did fall (I realise you know this but that seems to be a key bit of the logic to the factory migration routines)

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Jango32



They will not be permanently destroyed, you will get the same amount of factories in Tizny Nigal and the Stalingrad factories will automatically be deleted (even if Stalingrad is never lost) on the historical capture date.

My tests are showing otherwise but I am using the IL-2's that are in Moscow as a reference point since they don't have a historical date of movement so they were not moved. The other items had a move date. The T-34's in Stalingrad are listed like the IL-2's and I have not seen the IL2's come back after the capture of Moscow. Even advancing the Turn and the production screen still does not have the destroyed IL2s Maybe you have more info than I have but my test is showing what I wrote is correct and pretty sure per the manual. If you can show how the destroyed T-34's from Stalingrad comes back, or the IL2's I destroyed taking Moscow I would greatly appreciate it.

This is just my test case and took Moscow and advanced the turn, you can clearly see all the factories that did move, but the IL2's were not in that list of having been evacuated.

...

Jango is right, yes the T34s in Stalingrad are destroyed on loss but are then replaced elsewhere. You are right, the Il-2 and other production in Moscow is a permanent loss.

The key being that the latter were never historically lost while Stalingrad did fall (I realise you know this but that seems to be a key bit of the logic to the factory migration routines)

Only one was replaced of the two that were in Stalingrad and went to Leningrad. I tested it out.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

The Commanders report

[Hardradi]

This thread reminded me to check on something.

It seems you can evacuate factories out over an interdicted rail line (coloured yellow) and maybe even when there is no rail route out of the location at all.

Does this terminology mean that the factories were successfully evacuated?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

This thread reminded me to check on something.

It seems you can evacuate factories out over an interdicted rail line (coloured yellow) and maybe even when there is no rail route out of the location at all.

Does this terminology mean that the factories were successfully evacuated?

You can have the rail cut and still will get out.

[Hardradi]

That's a shame.

[Hardradi]

.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I want to perform my test to check if production of different kinds of weapons will go down or not.

Let's imagine following situation.
When fabrics are operating at full power (enough supplies/armament points and all other stuff that is needed) every turn Soviet produces:
- 10k rifles
- 500 howitzers

Will production of a weapons itself (not armament points) go down or Soviets still will be able to produce 10k rifles, 500 howitzers like before only because they have virtual pool of stockpiled armament points (which graph goes only up and up in every game, even vs an AI), if cities with this factories will be captured ahead of a historical date?
This is a question.

I did this test. Unfortunately I was right. Weapons are build from a generic armament pool. It means that even if you lose major production cities ahead of schedule it means NOTHING in terms of production.

My testing setup:
- playing as human for the Axis and Soviet side, all settings at 100.
- run 7 turns as Axis and Soviets without doing anything, just checking what is produced

Every turn result is almost the same, deviation is few weapons, and looks like this (turn 7 with all factories):


Then I play again as Axis and Soviet, but this time I was advancing as fast as I can.

On turn 7 I was able to capture Leningrad, Rzev, Kalinin, Kaluga, Tula, Kiev, Orel, Kursk, Kharkov, Krivoy Rog, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Stalino and nearby cities with production.

Map on Soviet turn 8:







And production screen (compare it with a previous production screen, when no factories were lost):


And armament points went down only by 20k. It means 1680/20 = 84 turns before Soviets run out of them. Some fabrics will restore and as a result it means that Soviets never run out of them and in a real game player will be not able to capture cities that I mention above anyway, at least by turn 8.




Weapon production must be based on a factories that are on a map (maybe few of them are of a map) and should be reduced accordingly if this factories are damaged/moved/captured ahead of a historical date.

Saves + screens:
https://ufile.io/lgfy97cx

[Hardradi]

Armaments produced has gone down from 203k to 120k. Armament factories are down from 1017 to 609. About 40%. This looks like it has been reduced accordingly to me.

You do not have a realistic burn rate for Armaments. If you had been naturally collapsing the pockets and bringing in reinforcements, replacements, etc, what would have happened to the Soviet Armaments pool?

I think you are only just scratching the surface here. There are many points to consider beyond this.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Armaments produced has gone down from 203k to 120k. Armament factories are down from 1017 to 609. About 40%. This looks like it has been reduced accordingly to me.

You do not have a realistic burn rate for Armaments. If you had been naturally collapsing the pockets and bringing in reinforcements, replacements, etc, what would have happened to the Soviet Armaments pool?

I think you are only just scratching the surface here. There are many points to consider beyond this.

In real game, where Soviet is not moving troops out of the way, there is no way you can capture this cities so fast. I wonder if there are any saves where Soviets have problems with weapons production, cuz of a factories loss.

[Stamb]

Even in AARs people are showing losses/manpower pool, production screen, but nobody is showing armament points. Why? Cuz there is no point of doing so. You will not run out of them.

[ShaggyHiK]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

The evacuation of industry from Leningrad generally took place along Lake Ladoga.

[Jango32]

I am fairly sure that even with the Lake Ladoga region under Axis control, "evacuation" will happen regardless.