Streamer Demo Questions

The Galaxy Lives On! Distant Worlds, the critically acclaimed 4X space strategy game is back with a brand new 64-bit engine, 3D graphics and a polished interface to begin an epic new Distant Worlds series with Distant Worlds 2. Distant Worlds 2 is a vast, pausable real-time 4X space strategy game. Experience the full depth and detail of turn-based strategy, but with the simplicity and ease of real-time, and on the scale of a massively-multiplayer online game.

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zgrssd
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Darkmater
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

5. Does having empty weapon or engine slots give anything?
I have not yet seen a streamer use all slots of a type. And if they do not, designs with "+1 Weapon/Engine Slots" seem pointless.
Answer: There is no bonus for empty slots


Doesn't having less items on a ship reduce ship mass, thus increasing speed/maneuverability? In DWU as you added components, ship speed and turning reduced due to mass.
There are a number of Specialized Subhulls Designs.
You got the Base Frigate. And then behind more science are the Fast Frigates and the Damage focussed Frigates.
They are speed/damage focussed, because they have extra slots (over the baseic one) in the respective category.

The problem is, that I never have even seen someone use all the base designs slots. Meaning that any specialized subhull is pointless.
It does not mater if you got 6 or 7 Engine Slots, if you never have the weight capacity to use more then 3-4!

I hope I am wrong.
I hope there is minatursation or hull size increaes further down, that means you might actually run out of slots eventually.
I hope there is now a passive bonus to the hulltype.
I hope for something like "+10% per unused type specific slot". Which makes those slot usefull even if you can not use them.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

I think you've misunderstood the paradigm for the hulls vs. the designs. Most hulls will have more bays than you can use within the hull size. The point is not to use all of them, but to choose the direction you want to specialize your design in and use all of those. So you definitely may build a design that uses all the engine bays, or all the weapon bays, or all the defense bays, but you will likely have to compromise and have fewer bays used in other areas compared to a balanced design to fit within the hull size limits. The specialized/upgraded hulls allow you options for further specialization that the lower tech/base hulls do not. They also increase the maximum hull size to allow you to better make use of those options. A basic Human, Escort for example only has two weapon bays, but a Heavy Escort has three along with a larger max size, etc.

Adding bonuses for unused bays would make no sense within this system. You still get the advantages as in DW1 for unused size. Certain hulls also have built in hull bonuses that differentiate them better by role.

Regards,

- Erik
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
I just don't understand why the option was not done in a way I would ever consider using it. You could easily have given some efficiency bonus for multiple research so there would be both benefits and drawbacks with both. That would have made it a bit more sense.

From a pure game design standpoint, I understand and agree with what you've said. The minor incentives of concurrent crash research and running side projects with much higher research bonuses don't make up for the optimization of getting a tech into your ships and economy faster.

At the same time though, there's a more philosophical question of verisimilitude within the living galaxy. If we gave some kind of additional efficiency bonus for multiple concurrent project, why would splitting your research across three concurrent projects make you effectively better at researching those projects? Why would it cost you say 3000 research to focus everyone on a new hyperdrive, but only say 2000 research for that same hyperdrive if you were also researching two other projects at the same time? Outside of pure game design, how would you rationalize that? I can imagine some, but none were convincing enough for me or Elliot to opt for the pure game design choice there.

Regards,

- Erik

Have you actually ever seen research work like they do in a game.... ;)

There a millions of reason why you would like to split research into many different areas in real life... first of all allot of research in different areas are depending on each other, the other is administration, making sure you are not duplicating work and pure interest and devotion of the scientific community.

Not to mention the cost of switching specialised equipment, lab buildings, personnel that you need for different types of research... In real life there is a steep curve of diminishing return of investment into specific areas of science after a certain point. The other VERY important thing about real life is the we don't know where something will lead... we don't know the future as we do in a game that has a tech tree.

I think i could go on and on why concurrent research should and would be way more efficient in real life. ;)

In my opinion I could see that the game simply had different pools of research in different areas that would be way more realistic, but you also would need more research period unless you want to wait 50-100 years between technologies I suppose. Each step would need to be much smaller so you feel there is some progress.

I have no issue with how the research model work in the game, it is a tried and proved method for games and work well.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

Yeah, those were the same rationalizations we considered, it just wasn't as convincing to us that there was a need to make concurrent research more efficient. We'll have another chat about this before release though. I appreciate the input from the community.
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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
There are a number of Specialized Subhulls Designs.
You got the Base Frigate. And then behind more science are the Fast Frigates and the Damage focussed Frigates.
They are speed/damage focussed, because they have extra slots (over the baseic one) in the respective category.

The problem is, that I never have even seen someone use all the base designs slots. Meaning that any specialized subhull is pointless.
It does not mater if you got 6 or 7 Engine Slots, if you never have the weight capacity to use more then 3-4!

I hope I am wrong.
I hope there is minatursation or hull size increaes further down, that means you might actually run out of slots eventually.
I hope there is now a passive bonus to the hulltype.
I hope for something like "+10% per unused type specific slot". Which makes those slot usefull even if you can not use them.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle... if you design a Patrol Escort you probably start with the engine sections as that is the defining feature of that design, otherwise you might as well just use the standard Escort. If you use a Heavy Escort you start with the weapons as that is the defining feature of that ship type. You then go from there and see what other compromises you have to make to fit within the weight limitation.

If you do it this way then the different hulls do have a purpose, they also can have individual small bonuses to enhance them. A patrol escort might say have 10% speed bonus while the heavy escort have a 10% savings on weapons energy or something.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yeah, those were the same rationalizations we considered, it just wasn't as convincing to us that there was a need to make concurrent research more efficient. We'll have another chat about this before release though. I appreciate the input from the community.

If simulation was something game designer was interested in there should simply be a differentiation between theoretical and practical science and most of the time what you get should have been more of a black box. Once in a while the researcher would give you a probable practical technology you can decide to reject or invest more into. You might eventually discover you invested in something that turns out to be a dead end, but at the same time your scientists discovered something far more valuable but for a very different purpose. Like a new energy source instead of a new engine type.

Not sure it would have gone too well with the gaming community to leave things too much into what seems to be random, even if it always will be weighted randoms. You should always be able to get where you want, you just don't know how much effort it will take or how many other different paths it will lead to doing so.

It would also have meant that you would need many different technologies to a specific practical application of something like a new engine... there just would not be any direct defined research points to get there, just an approximation.

Personally I would like such a research model... but not sure the gaming community is ready for it though. :)
Cauldyth
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Cauldyth »

Yes, speaking as someone who does research for a living, there's a point of diminishing returns. Doubling the number of research personnel on a project does not typically result in halving the time to achieve an outcome.
Darkmater
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Darkmater »

Is there trade income? I didn't see it as a line item in the finance sheet data. Not sure if you make money from trade agreements with other empires.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: Darkmater

Is there trade income? I didn't see it as a line item in the finance sheet data. Not sure if you make money from trade agreements with other empires.

It is the civilian part of your civilisation that make income through moving resources to and from their stations. It is the same as moving resources within your empire.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

You also get trade income of two types as the state.

1. The resource trade income from tariffs (based on other empires/independents buying good from you), as well as fuel sales to the private sector.

2. The bonus trade income from commerce centers built on your state space ports.

Regards,

- Erik
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Galaxy227
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Galaxy227 »

This has me thinking...
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You also get trade income of two types as the state.

1. The resource trade income from tariffs (based on other empires/independents buying good from you), as well as fuel sales to the private sector.
Obviously it's outside the scope of the initial release, but have you and Elliot ever seriously considered implementing arms-trading? The arms trade is a huge global industry which "manufactures and sells weapons and military technology," as per Google's definition. With how detailed ship design is in DW2, I always thought it would be an especially cool addition to the franchise. It almost feels like a natural step forward to sell or even gift ships, considering research can already be traded. This would also encourage proxy wars.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

Here's an income screen showing what I was talking about:



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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Galaxy227
Obviously it's outside the scope of the initial release, but have you and Elliot ever seriously considered implementing arms-trading? The arms trade is a huge global industry which "manufactures and sells weapons and military technology," as per Google's definition. With how detailed ship design is in DW2, I always thought it would be an especially cool addition to the franchise. It almost feels like a natural step forward to sell or even gift ships, considering research can already be traded. This would also encourage proxy wars.

Yes - well tech trading is already part of that, which includes all kinds of military technologies as well as projects that unlock new ships/station hulls but the idea of selling military ships is certainly in the plan.

Regards,

- Erik

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Jorgen_CAB
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Galaxy227
Obviously it's outside the scope of the initial release, but have you and Elliot ever seriously considered implementing arms-trading? The arms trade is a huge global industry which "manufactures and sells weapons and military technology," as per Google's definition. With how detailed ship design is in DW2, I always thought it would be an especially cool addition to the franchise. It almost feels like a natural step forward to sell or even gift ships, considering research can already be traded. This would also encourage proxy wars.

Yes - well tech trading is already part of that, which includes all kinds of military technologies as well as projects that unlock new ships/station hulls but the idea of selling military ships is certainly in the plan.

Regards,

- Erik


In addition to this it would be nice if we could form or fund pirate factions for these kinds of things. That could of course lead to war when the empire that is the target get sick enough on state funded pirates raiding them and goes for the source rather than the whip.
Darkmater
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Darkmater »

Another question of interest, in the preview are the ground forces icons placeholder or are you using NATO military symbols? Which could be chance or designed that the infantry symbol aligns that way.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Darkmater »

Thank you, I see the resource trade and trade bonus line item. Good to know.
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Darkmater
Another question of interest, in the preview are the ground forces icons placeholder or are you using NATO military symbols? Which could be chance or designed that the infantry symbol aligns that way.

We deliberately went with military symbols for each troop type this time around, with different colors by faction. In a future expansion, we may do a bit more. :-)

Regards,

- Erik

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zgrssd
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by zgrssd »

Okay, I really got a bit sidetracked there with the discussion. Better to leave that to the other thread from now on.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You also get trade income of two types as the state.

1. The resource trade income from tariffs (based on other empires/independents buying good from you), as well as fuel sales to the private sector.

2. The bonus trade income from commerce centers built on your state space ports.

Regards,

- Erik
That gives me a followup question (Nr. 9 if I did not miss any).
"I had a bunch of Tourist questions:
- is Tourism Income taken out of the Private economy of whoever is owning those tourists, or is it generated from thin air?
- do Tourists actually travel around within the Region of space, or just go Home->The one place to visit->Back home?"

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Darkmater
Another question of interest, in the preview are the ground forces icons placeholder or are you using NATO military symbols? Which could be chance or designed that the infantry symbol aligns that way.

We deliberately went with military symbols for each troop type this time around, with different colors by faction. In a future expansion, we may do a bit more. :-)

Regards,

- Erik

Personally I like NATO symbols. They are visually clear and can be easily compressed if you ever end up with 30+ Infantry units on the same planet.
So please, keep them as a option for weird people like me.
Darkmater
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Darkmater »

Apologies to keep using this as a streamers question thread, if there is a better place let me know.

I am curious on mining stations and asteroids, does one mining station cover an area so potentially a strategically placed station could cover a large set of asteroids? If so, how does one tell the mining coverage area?

Furthermore, will tech increase the coverage size of a mining station?

Finally are there still gas and ore mining stations or does one do both now?
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RE: Streamer Demo Questions

Post by Jorgen_CAB »

ORIGINAL: Darkmater

Apologies to keep using this as a streamers question thread, if there is a better place let me know.

I am curious on mining stations and asteroids, does one mining station cover an area so potentially a strategically placed station could cover a large set of asteroids? If so, how does one tell the mining coverage area?

Furthermore, will tech increase the coverage size of a mining station?

Finally are there still gas and ore mining stations or does one do both now?

There are two different mining modules as far as I saw from the stream. The small one mine slower and is cheaper and will only mine one asteroid or planet. The large one have an area so can mine several asteroids when placed strategically. You also can increase the range with technology. I also suppose the small mining module are mainly meant for mining ships not stations.

There do seem to be a bug where the AI replace the large mining module with a small mining module if the design is on Auto upgrade... I hope that is a bug they will fix... ;) ...as that will just be hindering the AI with sometimes halving or worse their mining outputs once in a while and seriously reduce the mineral output of station in asteroid fields.

There also does not seem to be a difference for mining gas, luxuries or just minerals as far as I could see from the streams.
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