25.4.1 clarification on 30 hex limit

[Hardradi]

Time to re-run it without Cherepovets.

[Stamb]

For some reason the southern track is used more than the northern one.

Because it is closer to a NSS (Moscow) ?

[Hardradi]

So I destroy Cherepovets depot on T1, (note it still has supplies as built into the scenario). Now, as far as I understand the northern line, would be outside the range and should not be able to ship to Volkhov/Leningrad. Likewise the southern line is also outside of the range. There are no level 2+ railyards within 30 hexes (if you follow the rail lines) of either Volkhov or Leningrad. There are no interim depots to catch supplies along either the northern line or the southern line.

I run it forward to turn 2 and they still get supplies via rail.

[Beethoven1]

Let me try and translate ---

HLYA, and by extension EwaldVonKleist (and Hardradi doing Ewald's test) are misunderstanding the logistics system

The key point that they are not grasping is that the limit to how far freight can travel is 200 SMP, not 30 hexes

They are thinking that the "30 hex limit" determines how far freight can travel.

But instead, the "30 hex limit" is referring to something different entirely

The 30 hex limit is instead referring to, if you want to send freight from a depot, how much railyard capacity can be used to send freight from that depot? The answer is, you can use as much railyard capacity as is within 30 hexes (distance by rail, not distance as the crow flies).

And technically though, you might not be using "all" of the railyard capacity that is within 30 hexes, because there are other depots that are also sending freight on, and some of those will overlap and use some of the same railyard capacity.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

Let me try and translate ---

HLYA, and by extension EwaldVonKleist (and Hardradi doing Ewald's test) are misunderstanding the logistics system

The key point that they are not grasping is that the limit to how far freight can travel is 200 SMP, not 30 hexes

They are thinking that the "30 hex limit" determines how far freight can travel.

But instead, the "30 hex limit" is referring to something different entirely

The 30 hex limit is instead referring to, if you want to send freight from a depot, how much railyard capacity can be used to send freight from that depot? The answer is, you can use as much railyard capacity as is within 30 hexes (distance by rail, not distance as the crow flies).

And technically though, you might not be using "all" of the railyard capacity that is within 30 hexes, because there are other depots that are also sending freight on, and some of those will overlap and use some of the same railyard capacity.

No, I understand the freight can go the distance. What I did not know was that once entrained at the beginning of the trip the freight stays with the same train. Knowing that tidbit changes the game a bit.

[Hardradi]

So on a clean rail line with no usage or interdiction 1 piece of freight can move 200 hexes if there is a level 2+ railyard within 30 hexes?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

So on a clean rail line with no usage or interdiction 1 piece of freight can move 200 hexes if there is a level 2+ railyard within 30 hexes?

correct. 200 SMP's,

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I have now brought this up in my AAR starting around post 173ish https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... age=6&key=

if I understand what you are talking about properly then its based on a misunderstanding of the entire system

first there are some variables in the system, some are random (congestion can be created outside actual usage - consider this to model incompetence/accidents), some are unpredictable such as how SMP costs interact with usage and how that builds up.

At start this increases the cost in trains/hex till you run out of trains to add on - thats why there is a hard wired cap on how much the NSS can generate with this affected by distance and prior usage ... this cap being fairly important

second, the sequence is - freight entrians - gets 200 SMP (its a bit more complex than this but that will do) - in doing so draws off rail cap (up to 30 hexes) - goes up to 200 SMP and detrains (so this is not how units act) - note it uses the original 'train' all the time, its not pulling up trains as it goes. Which really is why (above) I doubt you'll have much depot-depot movement till the system (& the front) settles down.

if this is what you are doing (& I could well be misunderstanding) then its pretty misleading to be honest

I really really really really wish you would not take puck shots at me. This statement "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me but others too to gain a reaction. Here is the reaction, I appreciate your knowledge and it is more than I will ever have in this game. I do appreciate when you share that knowledge when you are civil without puck shotting at me or others. I am only asking questions, looking for answers, and trying things and showing them in the open on my AAR. If I start a dialogue, try the item in real time in my AAR and fail, so be it. But saying I am misleading is farthest from the truth there is since I am using my knowledge I do have to further an understanding on trying something different. All are here on the forum to better themselves, even if it is to laugh at my failed endeavors, and learn from it.

Now having said that thank you for what you typed on the rest of the items. I did not know, nor read, about the SMP staying on the same train for the 200 SMP. It makes a difference and will adapt it into how I pursue my depot system in my game with Zovs.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This statement "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me but others too to gain a reaction.

You are misinterpreting Loki's meaning here. When one says that a statement is "misleading," that simply means that it incorrect or based upon a false premise or assumption. This does not mean that the person who made the statement (in this case you) was attempting to mislead people.

This is simply the grammatical difference between "to mislead" (a verb) and "misleading" (an adjective).

Loki was using it in the adjectival sense, and consequently he was not saying or implying anything about you or your intent, and there is no reason for you to take offense at anything.

[Zovs]

That is a great tidbit. I wish there was more tools to monitor logistics.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Thank you everyone for your posts and invaluable insight into the Freight system and the posts in my AAR. I hope some questions have been answered for some.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Beethoven1, Loki, thanks for your ruleset contributions regarding the 200SMP. The fact that the entrained freight always takes a "200SMP" budget with it, regardless of the distance it travels, does change things as you describe. Not sure why the system is this way, a unit shipped from Berlin 10 Miles to Potsdam should use less train capacity than one shipped to Rostov in real life, but does not ingame if I understand this correctly?

@Beethoven: The test by Hardradi is not what I described since the rail net is connected to the mainland and is not a single rail line only connected to a port.
From what I have learned now, the test is moot anyway.
Regrads

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Thank you everyone for your posts and invaluable insight into the Freight system and the posts in my AAR. I hope some questions have been answered for some.

this explanation as to how the system works is in the manual - 30.8.1 including a discussion of how freight takes 'trains' and then moves

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Beethoven1, Loki, thanks for your ruleset contributions regarding the 200SMP. The fact that the entrained freight always takes a "200SMP" budget with it, regardless of the distance it travels, does change things as you describe. Not sure why the system is this way, a unit shipped from Berlin 10 Miles to Potsdam should use less train capacity than one shipped to Rostov in real life, but does not ingame if I understand this correctly?

@Beethoven: The test by Hardradi is not what I described since the rail net is connected to the mainland and is not a single rail line only connected to a port.
From what I have learned now, the test is moot anyway.
Regrads

a) like a unit freight matches its 'weight' to claim rail cap (or shipping or air transport), just 1 tonne of freight = 1 unit of capacity
b) there are complications (above what is said above) but they don't alter the basic system
c) A unit grabs the trains as it entrains, generates a SMP stock (MP left after moves and entrains) and moves, sometimes you can disentrain that move (so the trains go back to source), most often the unit has to wait till next turn to finish its move (so the trains are locked up).
c1) you can test this 'locking up' by entraining say XXXX Pzr when it arrives at Berlin, the rail cap left at Berlin will be reduced till they finally leave their trains
c2) in a unit move you have your 200 SMP (or less), each hex costs from 1-6 SMP (congestion), when you reach the end of your allocation it stops
d) freight does some things the same, some different
d1) entrains, gets 200 SMP pays a variable move cost
d2) must disentrain (which is where intermediate depots come in)
d3) can still try to go 200 hexes but pulls down more rail cap from the original source, so whereas increasing congestion reduces the distance for units it actually increases the cost on rail cap for freight
d4) which is why the amount pumped out of the NSS has a max (the rail yards) but the practical amount (sticking with the axis for the moment) drops as distance/prior usage builds up. Its also why it tends to plateau for the axis player come mid-42 when they basically have all the main rail connections repaired (so the ability to route around congestion) and the at-start malus drops away

Its easier to test the isolated spur question in WiTW as geography generates them. The first (& usually most telling) is that when the Allies move into Italy the rail cap for Sicily is not available, so its not till they have some of the bigger rail yards in S Italy captured, repaired and integrated will they get much rail capacity. Same in France, its slotting Paris into the rail net that starts to give some capacity (all those trains in the UK being useless)

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

... "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me ...

your post was misleading, as was the underlying premise. If all you were doing was a discussion of a different way to do depot priorities/HQ placement etc then your take is a valid as anyone elses. May be more or less effective but never right or wrong. When you (inadvertently) misrepresent how it works, and then others shoot off accepting what you've said then, yes, its misleading.

edit - and, of real importance, none of this engages with how demand slots into the system

[Stamb]

If there is Stalino with lvl 4 depot supply priority and all nearby depots within 30 hexes range are also set at 4 then Stalino's railyard is just useless as it can not perform depot to depot movement and freight that is coming from other sources, lets say Berlin, is utilizing only trains that it was able to grab at en training (Berlin at 30 hexes around in this example) ?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

If there is Stalino with lvl 4 depot supply priority and all nearby depots within 30 hexes range are also set at 4 then Stalino's railyard is just useless as it can not perform depot to depot movement and freight that is coming from other sources, lets say Berlin, is utilizing only trains that it was able to grab at en training (Berlin at 30 hexes around in this example) ?

no

usually issues on this matter are subjective but we have to be clear - all this freight can only go 30 hexes from the depot stuff is nonsense, I'm sorry there is no other way to put it. HLYA has managed to set off a spectacular collection of hares about this.

So if Stalino is at level 4 it cannot do depot-depot transfer, perfectly true, but its got nothing to do with what is within 30 hexes, its to do with the rule that stops depot-depot moves if they are the same priority. If every depot on the map was #3 then the only depot-depot moves would be from the NSS (as they are at 0).

If the entire southern half of the axis depot system was at #3 then Stalino could feasibly still be sending out freight if say Minsk was at #4, that meets the basic test and it could use its local railyards to initiate the transfer

edit: in the end the logistics system is actually very simple, its when people decide that they can game it that all this confusion comes up. Look at Carlkay's AAR, that is how to get a decent 1941 logistics system in place, look at mine (both the vs AI and with SpeedySteve) and that is how to get a decent mid-game logistics system in place.

Your tools are depot priority, unit priority, HQ placement, how you repair the rail net and deploy the FBD/NKPS. All those are subjective, as M60 has argued, there are a number of ways to get it to work but equally there are a number of mistakes that can crash it

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Thank you everyone for your posts and invaluable insight into the Freight system and the posts in my AAR. I hope some questions have been answered for some.

this explanation as to how the system works is in the manual - 30.8.1 including a discussion of how freight takes 'trains' and then moves

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Beethoven1, Loki, thanks for your ruleset contributions regarding the 200SMP. The fact that the entrained freight always takes a "200SMP" budget with it, regardless of the distance it travels, does change things as you describe. Not sure why the system is this way, a unit shipped from Berlin 10 Miles to Potsdam should use less train capacity than one shipped to Rostov in real life, but does not ingame if I understand this correctly?

@Beethoven: The test by Hardradi is not what I described since the rail net is connected to the mainland and is not a single rail line only connected to a port.
From what I have learned now, the test is moot anyway.
Regrads

a) like a unit freight matches its 'weight' to claim rail cap (or shipping or air transport), just 1 tonne of freight = 1 unit of capacity
b) there are complications (above what is said above) but they don't alter the basic system
c) A unit grabs the trains as it entrains, generates a SMP stock (MP left after moves and entrains) and moves, sometimes you can disentrain that move (so the trains go back to source), most often the unit has to wait till next turn to finish its move (so the trains are locked up).
c1) you can test this 'locking up' by entraining say XXXX Pzr when it arrives at Berlin, the rail cap left at Berlin will be reduced till they finally leave their trains
c2) in a unit move you have your 200 SMP (or less), each hex costs from 1-6 SMP (congestion), when you reach the end of your allocation it stops
d) freight does some things the same, some different
d1) entrains, gets 200 SMP pays a variable move cost
d2) must disentrain (which is where intermediate depots come in)
d3) can still try to go 200 hexes but pulls down more rail cap from the original source, so whereas increasing congestion reduces the distance for units it actually increases the cost on rail cap for freight
d4) which is why the amount pumped out of the NSS has a max (the rail yards) but the practical amount (sticking with the axis for the moment) drops as distance/prior usage builds up. Its also why it tends to plateau for the axis player come mid-42 when they basically have all the main rail connections repaired (so the ability to route around congestion) and the at-start malus drops away

Its easier to test the isolated spur question in WiTW as geography generates them. The first (& usually most telling) is that when the Allies move into Italy the rail cap for Sicily is not available, so its not till they have some of the bigger rail yards in S Italy captured, repaired and integrated will they get much rail capacity. Same in France, its slotting Paris into the rail net that starts to give some capacity (all those trains in the UK being useless)

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

... "pretty misleading to be honest" is offensive and you seem to do it quit often to not only me ...

your post was misleading, as was the underlying premise. If all you were doing was a discussion of a different way to do depot priorities/HQ placement etc then your take is a valid as anyone elses. May be more or less effective but never right or wrong. When you (inadvertently) misrepresent how it works, and then others shoot off accepting what you've said then, yes, its misleading.

edit - and, of real importance, none of this engages with how demand slots into the system

Yup, 30.8.1 in the Appendix is a good read on how freight works. Thank you for the pointer. I will point people to this.

Yup, my premise was wrong based on my understanding of observance of the system. I said so in my AAR I could be totally wrong from my observation. At this point I believe more have learned from the dialogue and maybe a better understanding since many, like me, don't read the manual from cover to cover.

Thanks for the lesson.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Stamb

If there is Stalino with lvl 4 depot supply priority and all nearby depots within 30 hexes range are also set at 4 then Stalino's railyard is just useless as it can not perform depot to depot movement and freight that is coming from other sources, lets say Berlin, is utilizing only trains that it was able to grab at en training (Berlin at 30 hexes around in this example) ?

no

usually issues on this matter are subjective but we have to be clear - all this freight can only go 30 hexes from the depot stuff is nonsense, I'm sorry there is no other way to put it. HLYA has managed to set off a spectacular collection of hares about this.

So if Stalino is at level 4 it cannot do depot-depot transfer, perfectly true, but its got nothing to do with what is within 30 hexes, its to do with the rule that stops depot-depot moves if they are the same priority. If every depot on the map was #3 then the only depot-depot moves would be from the NSS (as they are at 0).

If the entire southern half of the axis depot system was at #3 then Stalino could feasibly still be sending out freight if say Minsk was at #4, that meets the basic test and it could use its local railyards to initiate the transfer

edit: in the end the logistics system is actually very simple, its when people decide that they can game it that all this confusion comes up. Look at Carlkay's AAR, that is how to get a decent 1941 logistics system in place, look at mine (both the vs AI and with SpeedySteve) and that is how to get a decent mid-game logistics system in place.

Your tools are depot priority, unit priority, HQ placement, how you repair the rail net and deploy the FBD/NKPS. All those are subjective, as M60 has argued, there are a number of ways to get it to work but equally there are a number of mistakes that can crash it

I understand it that freight moves 200 smp, not 30 hexes. And I made a mistake in my example. It should be "If there is Stalino with lvl 4 depot supply priority and all nearby depots within 200SMP range are also set at 4"

Basically all depots at 4. Only NSS are 0. In that case rail yards lvl2+ > 30 hexes from NSS are useless, correct?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
I understand it that freight moves 200 smp, not 30 hexes. And I made a mistake in my example. It should be "If there is Stalino with lvl 4 depot supply priority and all nearby depots within 200SMP range are also set at 4"

Basically all depots at 4. Only NSS are 0. In that case rail yards lvl2+ > 30 hexes from NSS are useless, correct?

as above, don't look for complications, stick to the tools you have.

Stalino at priority #4 = no Stalino-depot transfers. There is no other reasons for this other than that you have it at #4.

If everything is #4 apart from the NSS then only the NSS can do depot-depot transfers

[malyhin1517]

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

So I destroy Cherepovets depot on T1, (note it still has supplies as built into the scenario). Now, as far as I understand the northern line, would be outside the range and should not be able to ship to Volkhov/Leningrad. Likewise the southern line is also outside of the range. There are no level 2+ railyards within 30 hexes (if you follow the rail lines) of either Volkhov or Leningrad. There are no interim depots to catch supplies along either the northern line or the southern line.

I run it forward to turn 2 and they still get supplies via rail.

Removing a depot does not remove a railyard, and this level 2 railyard will still provide trains for freight over 30 hexes.

[Hardradi]

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

So I destroy Cherepovets depot on T1, (note it still has supplies as built into the scenario). Now, as far as I understand the northern line, would be outside the range and should not be able to ship to Volkhov/Leningrad. Likewise the southern line is also outside of the range. There are no level 2+ railyards within 30 hexes (if you follow the rail lines) of either Volkhov or Leningrad. There are no interim depots to catch supplies along either the northern line or the southern line.

I run it forward to turn 2 and they still get supplies via rail.

Removing a depot does not remove a railyard, and this level 2 railyard will still provide trains for freight over 30 hexes.

Good point. I missed that Cherepovets had a level 2+ railyard. Still, IF the 30 hex rule applied as thought, the southern line would not have any freight on it on the first test run.