Urban terrain combat balance
Moderator: Joel Billings
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
as I wrote in post #67, I don't think there is a better and quick solution, unless devs are already working on a changes to an urban combat. It would give better and expected results while adjustments to a combat in an urban areas can be polished later on.
Слава Україні!
Glory to Ukraine!
Glory to Ukraine!
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
I surely do not remember losses favorable to Germans when they were attacking isolated cities.
Do not forget that the numbers shown on the battle report are proper dead personnel; a far larger chunk is 'damaged' and is pratically out of the equation for a while, often a long while!
Do not forget that the numbers shown on the battle report are proper dead personnel; a far larger chunk is 'damaged' and is pratically out of the equation for a while, often a long while!
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
...
I agree with you that there should be a special solution. It needs to be fixed in the combat engine, but thats a task for the tests. The reason why we are constantly repeating us is because Joels comment was that it is WAD, but if so there is a design problem.
There are two issues:
1) The defenders rout too quickly even though final CV and the force ratio would result in them holding according to the final CV ratio.
In addition the same combination of defenders, attackers and fortifications would lead to a defensive success elsewhere even though urban terrain should favour the defender more than most others.
...
Only the devs can fix this, ideally without special rules and by a fix of the combat engine and its parameters.
I also suggest that a unit should not rout due to turning unready during combat. WitE1 has the rule that unready units that have some CV left (and in the examples the units do, as they win the final CV contest) can't attack, but may stand next to enemy hexagons. Not sure why this has been changed here.
...
I think the problem is that each sub-set of this issue is indeed WAD, depleted units next to an enemy should indeed rout etc (& a depleted unit can have some residual cv). I'm assuming the units haven't just slipped to 'unready' as those can be next to an enemy (& in a very specific instance even attack - 23.8.8).
Urban combat is triggering close range interactions, again I think that is WAD. To some extent this favours the side with the most combat elements (probably WAD)
Its actually not easy for the Soviets to trigger, if they don't hit with numbers and decent CPP etc then they lose badly - in my AI game I had the AI attacking Leningrad and losing 10-15,000 men per attempt, so lose, you lose badly.
I can only speak for my current MP game, but none of the 3 urban areas I've lost this way went easily - in that each forced the Soviets to spend time creating a set piece assault - so again WAD.
Looking at the actual instances where the Soviets attacked the city (& we have to disregard the preparatory moves as this is comparing the actual assault on the urban core), I still think Breslau is the outlier - most of these battles were resolved in under a week - both siege and assault
The but is ... as Beethoven started this thread with (& I fully agree) the net effect is these locations become indefensible as anywhere else a sub 2-1 outcome will only trigger a win on this rule if the defenders were already really weakened (taking Riga on T1 is a good eg). So while they may force a degree of operational pause they are, perversely, a weak spot.
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
Not game related.
I just pulled these from various Panzer Campaign games I have for reference.
Date: October 29th, 1944 - Size: Large - Location: Central Hungary
Scenario Briefing: The first Russian attempt to capture Budapest by storm began in late October, when Stalin ordered the Commander of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, Malinovsky, to capture Budapest in five days. Malinovsky replied that he could do the job but needed five days to prepare. Stalin ordered him to proceed immediately! Thus, on the morning of October 29th, prior to all necessary preparations being completed, the attack began. Initially successful, once the outskirts of Budapest were reached, the attack bogged down, due to supply shortages and Axis counterattacks. Another way in, to capture Budapest, would have to be found.
Date: November 27th, 1944
Scenario Briefing: On 27 Nov 44 the Russians launced a multi-pronged attack which ultimately resulted in the encirclement of Budapest. The 3rd Uk Front sent the 4th Gds and 46th Armies into the area between Balaton and the Danube Bend, while 2nd Uk Front sent the 6th Tank Army and Pliyev Groups trusting into the mountains North of the bend. By 26 Dec 44 the gap between the fronts had closed and within the encirclement, lay Budapest, about 80,000 troops and several hundred thousand civilians.
Date: December 31st, 1944 - Size: Very Large - Location: Budapest, Hungary
Scenario Briefing: The Hungarian capital city was encircled on 26 Dec 1944. Hitler order 4.SS.Pz.K to relocate from Poland to Hungary. By the evening of 31 Dec 44, the leading elements had detrained and a decision was made to launch an immediate attack. The goal of the SS troopers was to rescue their besieged SS brethren in Budapest. Hitler's goal on the other hand, was to re-establish the status-quo. Shades of Stalingrad all over again!
Date: January 3rd, 1945 - Size: Medium - Location: Budapest
Scenario Briefing: The city of Budapest was encircled on 26 Dec 1944. Like Stalingrad, Hitler ordered the city to hold at all cost as several relief attempts were hastily thrown together. But for the defenders, the noose tightened. The siege of Budapest was a long a bloody affiar where the ground was measured in metres, not Kilometers.
Designer Note:
This scenario is a historical setup which shows a desperate slugfest for Budapest. The fighting could have continued weeks longer and eventually result in the same outcome. The scale of the Panzer Campaign series was never designed to model street-fighting such as this, yet we feel it is necessary to include this scenario to illustrate the full story of the fighting in Hungary in the early part of the last year of the war.
Stalingrad, November 19th 1942: After several months of bloody house to house fighting, the
Soviet positions on the west bank of the Don had been reduced to pockets of stone and
rubble, that were as shallow as 300 meters, with many of the key positions in Germans
hands. But these last islets of resistance had been forged by fire. On the Nov 17th, Hitler
had wired von Paulus a message urging a quick resolution to the fighting in Stalingrad, a
message Von Paulus had read out to each divisional commander. The assault began in
driving rain and snow resulting in no air support. On that day, they gained yet another 50
meters in one place, 100 meters in another. One more day, two at the outside, would put
them in complete possession of "the Holy Grail", the complete city. But Soviet attacks on the
north flank put an end to this final push before noon on the Nov 19th. [Size, small] Designer’
s Note: This scenario is a historical setup which shows the desperate slugfest for Stalingrad
The fighting could have continued through the whole day, with the Germans capturing the
city had the Soviet offensive been delayed. The scale of the Panzer Campaign series was
never designed to model street-fighting over weeks, or months, where gains were measured
in meters. But this scenario is included to illustrate the desperate battle that occurred prior to
the Soviet attack on November 19th 1942 as I am sure had it not been included, people
would have asked for it..
Minsk, June 23rd 1944: After some small "recces in force" the day before, the
Soviets launched Operation "Bagration", an all-out offensive to crush the salient of
AG Center. The fortified cities of Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev, and Bobruysk, were all
encircled by pincer movements, then the Soviet armor and mechanized formations
swept on towards the west. Taken by surprise, the majority of the German 4th and
9th Armies were trapped between Minsk and the Berezina River. So complete was
the victory where the Soviets had amassed overwhelming superiority, particularly in
armor and aircraft, that five weeks later the Soviets were on the banks of the Vistula
and the borders of East Prussia. [Size, large]
Date: Feb 13th to 16th, 1943 - Size: Large - Location: Kharkov, Ukraine
Scenario Briefing: Voronezh Front launched its assault on the Ukrainian city of Kharkov on Feb 13th. The Soviet plan called for the 40th Army to thrust south and meet the northward attacking 6th Guard Cavalry Corp at Yubotin, thereby isolating the city. Concurrently, 3rd Tank Army and 69th Army were to assail the German defences east of the city, thereby holding the Germans in place while the other Soviet forces encircled them. The Germans determined that the Soviet cavalry south of the city were the most dangerous and attacked them with mobile troops from both Das Reich and Liebstandarte. This attack went in on the 13th and subsequently pushed the cavalry back. In the meantime the missing mobile troops weakened the remaining German positions and the Russians were approaching Kharkov's outskirts by the evening of the 14th. The situation quickly deteriorated and with the roads out of the city being progressively cut, SS General Hausser abandoned the city during the 16th. By nightfall the city was in Soviet hands.
Design Notes:
This scenario is recommended for HTH play but could be played against the AI for either side. The German player has a quandary. 6th Guards Cavalry Corp threatens the German deep flank. SS mobile troops in position could either eliminate the threat which will take time or screen the cavalry off tying up some troops. It will be up to the German player to decide if these forces are moved back to try and shore up east of Kharkov. For the Soviet player, 3rd Tank, 40th & 69th Army have very significant forces that can be used to pressure the German all along the line. In 40th Army sector in particular, weight of numbers should be able to push Korp Raus back. 4th Guards Tank Corp and the Ski Brigades manoeuvrability will be key here. Historically, the SS mobile forces were too late to relieve the pressure exerted by 3rd Tank Army in particular. There was initially very heavy fighting at Rogan on the road to Chuguev, but once that position was stormed, there was little distance to Kharkov.
I just pulled these from various Panzer Campaign games I have for reference.
Date: October 29th, 1944 - Size: Large - Location: Central Hungary
Scenario Briefing: The first Russian attempt to capture Budapest by storm began in late October, when Stalin ordered the Commander of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, Malinovsky, to capture Budapest in five days. Malinovsky replied that he could do the job but needed five days to prepare. Stalin ordered him to proceed immediately! Thus, on the morning of October 29th, prior to all necessary preparations being completed, the attack began. Initially successful, once the outskirts of Budapest were reached, the attack bogged down, due to supply shortages and Axis counterattacks. Another way in, to capture Budapest, would have to be found.
Date: November 27th, 1944
Scenario Briefing: On 27 Nov 44 the Russians launced a multi-pronged attack which ultimately resulted in the encirclement of Budapest. The 3rd Uk Front sent the 4th Gds and 46th Armies into the area between Balaton and the Danube Bend, while 2nd Uk Front sent the 6th Tank Army and Pliyev Groups trusting into the mountains North of the bend. By 26 Dec 44 the gap between the fronts had closed and within the encirclement, lay Budapest, about 80,000 troops and several hundred thousand civilians.
Date: December 31st, 1944 - Size: Very Large - Location: Budapest, Hungary
Scenario Briefing: The Hungarian capital city was encircled on 26 Dec 1944. Hitler order 4.SS.Pz.K to relocate from Poland to Hungary. By the evening of 31 Dec 44, the leading elements had detrained and a decision was made to launch an immediate attack. The goal of the SS troopers was to rescue their besieged SS brethren in Budapest. Hitler's goal on the other hand, was to re-establish the status-quo. Shades of Stalingrad all over again!
Date: January 3rd, 1945 - Size: Medium - Location: Budapest
Scenario Briefing: The city of Budapest was encircled on 26 Dec 1944. Like Stalingrad, Hitler ordered the city to hold at all cost as several relief attempts were hastily thrown together. But for the defenders, the noose tightened. The siege of Budapest was a long a bloody affiar where the ground was measured in metres, not Kilometers.
Designer Note:
This scenario is a historical setup which shows a desperate slugfest for Budapest. The fighting could have continued weeks longer and eventually result in the same outcome. The scale of the Panzer Campaign series was never designed to model street-fighting such as this, yet we feel it is necessary to include this scenario to illustrate the full story of the fighting in Hungary in the early part of the last year of the war.
Stalingrad, November 19th 1942: After several months of bloody house to house fighting, the
Soviet positions on the west bank of the Don had been reduced to pockets of stone and
rubble, that were as shallow as 300 meters, with many of the key positions in Germans
hands. But these last islets of resistance had been forged by fire. On the Nov 17th, Hitler
had wired von Paulus a message urging a quick resolution to the fighting in Stalingrad, a
message Von Paulus had read out to each divisional commander. The assault began in
driving rain and snow resulting in no air support. On that day, they gained yet another 50
meters in one place, 100 meters in another. One more day, two at the outside, would put
them in complete possession of "the Holy Grail", the complete city. But Soviet attacks on the
north flank put an end to this final push before noon on the Nov 19th. [Size, small] Designer’
s Note: This scenario is a historical setup which shows the desperate slugfest for Stalingrad
The fighting could have continued through the whole day, with the Germans capturing the
city had the Soviet offensive been delayed. The scale of the Panzer Campaign series was
never designed to model street-fighting over weeks, or months, where gains were measured
in meters. But this scenario is included to illustrate the desperate battle that occurred prior to
the Soviet attack on November 19th 1942 as I am sure had it not been included, people
would have asked for it..
Minsk, June 23rd 1944: After some small "recces in force" the day before, the
Soviets launched Operation "Bagration", an all-out offensive to crush the salient of
AG Center. The fortified cities of Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev, and Bobruysk, were all
encircled by pincer movements, then the Soviet armor and mechanized formations
swept on towards the west. Taken by surprise, the majority of the German 4th and
9th Armies were trapped between Minsk and the Berezina River. So complete was
the victory where the Soviets had amassed overwhelming superiority, particularly in
armor and aircraft, that five weeks later the Soviets were on the banks of the Vistula
and the borders of East Prussia. [Size, large]
Date: Feb 13th to 16th, 1943 - Size: Large - Location: Kharkov, Ukraine
Scenario Briefing: Voronezh Front launched its assault on the Ukrainian city of Kharkov on Feb 13th. The Soviet plan called for the 40th Army to thrust south and meet the northward attacking 6th Guard Cavalry Corp at Yubotin, thereby isolating the city. Concurrently, 3rd Tank Army and 69th Army were to assail the German defences east of the city, thereby holding the Germans in place while the other Soviet forces encircled them. The Germans determined that the Soviet cavalry south of the city were the most dangerous and attacked them with mobile troops from both Das Reich and Liebstandarte. This attack went in on the 13th and subsequently pushed the cavalry back. In the meantime the missing mobile troops weakened the remaining German positions and the Russians were approaching Kharkov's outskirts by the evening of the 14th. The situation quickly deteriorated and with the roads out of the city being progressively cut, SS General Hausser abandoned the city during the 16th. By nightfall the city was in Soviet hands.
Design Notes:
This scenario is recommended for HTH play but could be played against the AI for either side. The German player has a quandary. 6th Guards Cavalry Corp threatens the German deep flank. SS mobile troops in position could either eliminate the threat which will take time or screen the cavalry off tying up some troops. It will be up to the German player to decide if these forces are moved back to try and shore up east of Kharkov. For the Soviet player, 3rd Tank, 40th & 69th Army have very significant forces that can be used to pressure the German all along the line. In 40th Army sector in particular, weight of numbers should be able to push Korp Raus back. 4th Guards Tank Corp and the Ski Brigades manoeuvrability will be key here. Historically, the SS mobile forces were too late to relieve the pressure exerted by 3rd Tank Army in particular. There was initially very heavy fighting at Rogan on the road to Chuguev, but once that position was stormed, there was little distance to Kharkov.
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator
Tester for WDS games
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Beethoven1
- Posts: 1439
- Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:23 pm
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
ORIGINAL: loki100
Its actually not easy for the Soviets to trigger, if they don't hit with numbers and decent CPP etc then they lose badly - in my AI game I had the AI attacking Leningrad and losing 10-15,000 men per attempt, so lose, you lose badly.
Keep in mind Leningrad is Heavy Urban rather than Urban, so it may be different. I think Jango (or maybe someone else) did a bit of testing and seemed to think that Heavy Urban might not have the same issue as regular Urban terrain.
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
which makes the whole thing even more quirky ... really this issue is only cropping up in Urban, clearly doesn't affect city and may not affect Heavy Urban.
I know that AI game is unreliable as the AI had 120 morale and that triggered the tactical nuke routines, so I regularly getting units bounce from the front line as a result of that routine alone
I know that AI game is unreliable as the AI had 120 morale and that triggered the tactical nuke routines, so I regularly getting units bounce from the front line as a result of that routine alone
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malyhin1517
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:52 am
- Location: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
I found such information on the ratio of the losses of Germany and the USSR. By the end of the war, this ratio was approximately 1 to 1 due to a sharp drop in the experience of the German troops and an increase in the experience of the Soviet troops. Therefore, in the case of the storming of the city, I consider the ratio of losses to be normal.ORIGINAL: cameron88
You realize in virtually every battle on the Eastern front the Soviets took significantly more casualties compared to the Germans, especially when they were attacking. Urban battles are no different, yes the PPsH was a good sub machine gun, but do you know what is more effective then a sub machine gun? Coordination, training, and tactics, and the ability to inflict significantly more casualties in a fighting withdrawal, something that does not happen ingame in urban battles for Germany as it should.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/П&# ... 085;е
Year and quarter Wehrmacht casualties Ratio to irretrievable losses
Red Army
By 1941 III quarter 185,198 11.5
1941 IV quarter 117,297 8.6
1942 I quarter 136,396 5.0
1942 II quarter 90,198 9.4
1942 III quarter 145,264 8.5
1942 IV quarter 134,957 3.9
1943 I quarter 294,706 2.5
1943 II quarter 48,132 4.0
1943 III quarter 187,858 4.3
1943 IV quarter 169,957 3.5
1944 I quarter 228,419 2.5
1944 II quarter 263,706 1.4
1944 III quarter 517,907 1.0
1944 IV quarter 222,914 1.6
Total 2,743,000 4.2
Sorry, i use an online translator 
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Cavalry Corp
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:28 pm
- Location: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
Should constant fighting have a chance to produce some rubble style effects as seen in many games??
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
Applying heavy urban/cities combat mechanics, which seems to work as planned, to an Urban is a reasonable solution until a proper fix?
Слава Україні!
Glory to Ukraine!
Glory to Ukraine!
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
It might be helpful to know what an Urban hex is supposed to represent. Several square kilometers of multistory concrete/stone blocks? A core of multistory concrete blocks with the rest being suburban?
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
I dont know answer for your question but current issue is a big one, as typically VP locations are urban areas, and where there should be a hold - there is a route. That is why applying heavy urban/cities combat mechanics is a good temporary fix. I hope dev team is working on this issue.
Слава Україні!
Glory to Ukraine!
Glory to Ukraine!
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
I did couple of urban tests and all of them had strange results as mentioned here. Not that the result itself is particularly strange but compared to City and then clear terrains it defonitely was. Both normal and beta patch. Would be awesome to get this looked at as its quite immersion breaking.
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ToxicThug11
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:54 pm
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- Contact:
RE: Urban terrain combat balance
Your posts are a pleasure to read and are a breath of fresh air. You would think these guys are still on Stalin's payroll.ORIGINAL: xhoel
ORIGINAL: loki100
exactly, with the type of comments above, this thread is better locked before someone goes too far (& I think there are too many insults already from people who really should know better)
Dont fall off your high horse
Thread doesnt need to be locked as it kills the discussion that was productive before certain people chipped in. I wont be commenting anymore so no need to worry.
Re: Urban terrain combat balance
Did some more "manual" testing with the latest beta on the Warsaw hex turn 1 (vistula-berlin scenario) and I have to say the results are much more in line with what Id expect compared to other hex types. Tried couple of under 2:1 attacks and city holds, above that and unless I send in 150ksoldiers or something crazy (against 7-8k), they retreat instead of routing immediately. Not sure how realistic all of it is as Im no expert, but definitely feels better now!
Re: Urban terrain combat balance
It sounds like one issue is the pace of combat is faster than the engine mechanics are designed to handle.
The routines that convert support into infantry squads occur in the logistics phases. The high combat intensity means several turns of fighting are occurring all at once, basically. It seems like conversion hould happen during or immediately after urban battles, along with combining damaged squads into healthy ones capable of fighting.
It seems like disruption should be lower as well, for the defender. Disrupted elements are unable to get into combat due to suppression or disorganization or something. Maybe it should just be a penalty in urban, if the attackers have to do house to house fighting for every block of the city, those suppressed elements will have to fight anyway.
The routines that convert support into infantry squads occur in the logistics phases. The high combat intensity means several turns of fighting are occurring all at once, basically. It seems like conversion hould happen during or immediately after urban battles, along with combining damaged squads into healthy ones capable of fighting.
It seems like disruption should be lower as well, for the defender. Disrupted elements are unable to get into combat due to suppression or disorganization or something. Maybe it should just be a penalty in urban, if the attackers have to do house to house fighting for every block of the city, those suppressed elements will have to fight anyway.
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Joel Billings
- Posts: 33492
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Re: Urban terrain combat balance
Any discussion of the high intensity/urban combat should be with the 1.02.24 version in mind as substantial changes were made in that version to address the issues that had been raised in this thread and others like it. Thanks to those who raised and discussed the issue and especially those who provided saves for us to look at and use in our internal testing (loki100 and xhoel were able to provide a number of good saves).
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard