Ship Upgrades?

[Hano]

Is there a list of conversion options around, it would be really useful to have an excel doc that you could search for example to find what ships were capable of converting to AKV and when?

[abulbulian]

Thanks for the advice. All I can add is that my CS type Jap ships did not start the upgrade process until I moved them to the Tokyo port. Is there a specific part in the docs that mention which ships need to go to Tokyo for upgrades? Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

FYI, I'm on version 1.8.11.26b

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Thanks for the advice. All I can add is that my CS type Jap ships did not start the upgrade process until I moved them to the Tokyo port. Is there a specific part in the docs that mention which ships need to go to Tokyo for upgrades? Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

FYI, I'm on version 1.8.11.26b

Read post 12 above where LST has quoted developer Don Bowen - the decision was set after the manual was already in publication. Revelation of the Tokyo only requirement (in stock) for Chitose and Chiyoda came in the forum when players first ran into the issue. Just go with it.

[Skyros]

I made this a while back.

[btd64]

Looks like a helpful chart....GP

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Wondering now if the Jap BBs that can convert to hybrid CVLs have to upgrade at Tokyo too?

I am pretty sure I did the BB bastardisations in Kure, so the only ones I am aware of that need Tokyo are the 2x Chitose class.
I did uncover what is probably a database error with either the Ise or Fuso class.
One of them has an “upgrade” option before the “conversion” option that actually has a 0 day delay, but ends up with the same converted ship.
I’ll try to find a screenshot to explain this better later.

[Tanaka]

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3819690

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion&#2835890) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

• must be disbanded in Tokyo
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
• Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
• the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
• the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

• can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
• the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
• the option becomes available on 1 December 1942

6. Effects of the change

• all four ships will be offline for 300 days
• the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
• if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
• as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
• the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
• As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
• in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Hano

Is there a list of conversion options around, it would be really useful to have an excel doc that you could search for example to find what ships were capable of converting to AKV and when?

Use tracker.

[Ian R]

How bizarre to see you adopting Alfred's posts to answer questions, after you so smugly celebrated his banning.

You really are shameless.

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3819690

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised. It has been answered many times before. Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary. Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion�) has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis. Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE. This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.

Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.

1. People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably. This is not correct and leads to confusion. The terms have quite separate meanings. Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths. A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option. However, these two paths are mutually exclusive. The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944. However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.

2. Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class. A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded". In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced. The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.

3. Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible. To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur. Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option. On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.

4. What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades". The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat. Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo. Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.

5. The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.

(a) Chitose and Chiyoda

• must be disbanded in Tokyo
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes". Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
• Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50. In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
• the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard. Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
• the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b) Mizuho and Nisshin

• can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
• the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size. Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
• the option becomes available on 1 December 1942

6. Effects of the change

• all four ships will be offline for 300 days
• the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
• if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
• as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
• the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
• As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
• in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7. Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.

Alfred

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Ian R
How bizarre to see you adopting Alfred's posts to answer questions, after you so smugly celebrated his banning.

You really are shameless.

No one debated Alfred's knowledge, just his behavior. Tanaka didn't ban Alfred - I did. I did that because of Alfred's behavior. I've also banned Tanaka once for his behavior. Alfred earned his ban and then chose not to return. As you know, his ban has since been lifted in the spirit of giving everyone a second chance to adapt to the enforcement of the forum rules.

The forum rules prohibit personal attacks, which is also what you just did above. Consider this an official warning to follow the rules and stop trying to turn a discussion about the game into something personal.

Regards,

- Erik

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

One of them has an “upgrade” option before the “conversion” option that actually has a 0 day delay, but ends up with the same converted ship.
I’ll try to find a screenshot to explain this better later.

I have an image to show each step in the conversion vs upgrade options for the BB Ise class, but it is too large to upload.
The second "upgrade" shown here has 0 days delay, which I assume is a database error.
If you take the upgrade path instead of the conversion option, you end up with the hybrid ship 6 months earlier.
That 2nd upgrade is probably meant to still be a 12x 36cm gun BB rather than an 8 gun BB-FP hybrid.