Ground combat?

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Misuse of a specific equipment in a specific scenario is not really much proof of that to be honest.

How do you "missuse" a tank?
How does that constitute missuse of a tank?
Those old tanks did walking speed - on good ground. Of which there was none in the reality of warfare.
When infantry attacks from any direction without a convenient sightport and machinegun, it was a actuall metal coffin.
A immobile tank is a speedbump for infantry and other tanks.

If I want to defend, I could get 1 Tiger II tank for 321,500 Reichsmark or 10 (ten!) 8.8 cm Pak 43 for 260,000 RM.
In case you wonder, that is the same gun.

Tanks do not defend. They are wasted on it. They propably just tell the enemy where your ambush is.
Whatever room there is to counterattack during planetary defense is covered by the +25% "Armored Defense" bonus you got for having a Tank in DW1. I would asume it exists in DW2 as well.

I know my WW2 and 1 pretty well as I'm well versed in it... I still am not talking about tactical application or misuse of said equipment. It also does not matter how many anti-tank guns you have if they are not where the enemy attack is, the tank can be in reserve and respond to an attack the more immobile guns can't... so you can't compare the cost of ten anti-tank guns with one tank, they simply do different things. Both is equally useful in defence but in different ways.

It is more operational level use of forces we talk about anyway, such as the Russian army defending against the Germans in WW2 without their armoured forces in 1941 to 1943... that would not have gone so well... likewise the German defence of the Russian offensive from 1943 to 1945 would have collapsed pretty fast with no armoured forces.

That is... armoured forces is as valuable and important in defence as they are on offence.

The French did not loose against the German forces based on their tanks being bad they really were not that bad, they lost because they did not understand mobile warfare at that time and their army in general was in shambles.

Armoured (mechanised or mobile) forces used in defence as pillboxes only happen in desperation, usually if outnumbered and mobility is hampered by say air-force or the like, or by incompetent leadership. In defence mobility is as important as it is on offence if you are able to use it. The Russians use mobile and elastic defence to good effect, especially later in the war when they had more and better mechanised units and experience.

In the real world armoured or mechanised units are as valuable on defence as they are on offence... it just is too expensive to use armoured or mechanised units everywhere and you want to concentrate your best troops to overwhelm the opponent where they are weak, that is why armoured mobile forces are so good and why lighter forces are important too. If an army or country could afford to armour all their troops they would, it simply is not economically sound to do that. Obviously there are areas where armoured forces are not suitable, but that is equally true on both offence and defence in that case.

[Pocus]

I was going to ask what is the comparative upkeep cost of a basic ground unit vs a small(ish) ship. Indeed, if 2 infantry units cost as much as a frigate, this does not bode well for the future of planetary defense.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Pocus

I was going to ask what is the comparative upkeep cost of a basic ground unit vs a small(ish) ship. Indeed, if 2 infantry units cost as much as a frigate, this does not bode well for the future of planetary defense.

The combination of ground units that have much better attack value than defence and the fact that ground defence is too expensive versus ship maintenance certainly seem like it.

Of course we are all just theorising right now, but I'm pretty sure this will be the case.

Especially if you are playing a more peaceful faction that don't invade planets much you are probably almost never going to build any infantry units at all. Only armoured and special forces units and those you probably only have when there is an actual war and a few just in case.

Maybee some infantry early on to defend against pirate raids, but that is all.

[zgrssd]

It is more operational level use of forces we talk about anyway, such as the Russian army defending against the Germans in WW2 without their armoured forces in 1941 to 1943... that would not have gone so well... likewise the German defence of the Russian offensive from 1943 to 1945 would have collapsed pretty fast with no armoured forces.

That is... armoured forces is as valuable and important in defence as they are on offence.

A Tank Army is priarily Tanks and supporting forces.
A Infantry Army is primarily Infantry and supproting forces.

Whatever limited use there is for the other weapon typein the formation, it is already integrated and part of the overall stats.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

A Tank Army is priarily Tanks and supporting forces.
A Infantry Army is primarily Infantry and supproting forces.

Whatever limited use there is for the other weapon typein the formation, it is already integrated and part of the overall stats.

That is my point... one tank army attacking another tank army then the one defending will have a pretty huge advantage. In real life you generally consider that you need a 3:1 strength parity to win in such a situation.

Have you every played a serious WW2 game, say War in the East where it was easy to attack an armoured corp, no... they are usually way stronger than an infantry corp, even in defence.

[Erik Rutins]

The overall balance in terms of attack vs. defense and the cost of an equivalent planetary defense vs. equivalent number of ships is similar to DW1. If anything, I think it's a bit easier to defend in DW2 than in DW1 as the planetary defense units are somewhat more effective and while you lose the ability for one small/medium spaceport to defend an entire planet, you gain a variety of new planetary facilities that can help as well as still having access to defensive bases. Early on, it's pretty easy to invade and conquer a relatively small world or border colony. Once you get to the mid-game and there is time and tech to build up defenses, it's much harder and more costly to conduct a successful invasion.

However, because troop transports are built to get to the planet, unless you have a very strong defense, some troops will get to the surface. You need your own troops when that happens because any space-only defense can be circumvented to a degree by a strong and dedicated foe.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Beyond the fact that similar balance did not seem to be a concern in DW1, I think a key part of the DW2 mechanics that's being completely missed here is the new Evasion stat, which acts as damage reduction for units. This did not exist in DW1 and makes armor tougher relative to infantry than the attack/defense strength values may indicate. Armor units have 50% evasion against Infantry. Infantry has 25% evasion against Armor. Infantry has no evasion against other infantry. Armor has no evasion against other armor.

Regards,

- Erik

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Beyond the fact that similar balance did not seem to be a concern in DW1, I think a key part of the DW2 mechanics that's being completely missed here is the new Evasion stat, which acts as damage reduction for units. This did not exist in DW1 and makes armor tougher relative to infantry than the attack/defense strength values may indicate. Armor units have 50% evasion against Infantry. Infantry has 25% evasion against Armor. Infantry has no evasion against other infantry. Armor has no evasion against other armor.

Regards,

- Erik

Ah, good. I had seen the mechanic, but no values to put it into context.
That should nicely cover all those considerations.
With the lower base attack, infantry propably can not hurt Tanks a lot. You need tanks to counter enemy tank. While not a perfect simulation, it is propably the closest we can get to on a absraction level that high above [:)]

I asume there is still the "Armored defense" and "Armored Offense" +25% for either side? Or were they subsumed by this Evasion mechanic?

[Nabobalis]

Will we see the icons being stacked or group in future?

[Erik Rutins]

Nabobalis,

Our eventual second pass on the ground combat UI will likely see something like that, but not at release. You typically need/have fewer individual units now than in DW2, so it's not quite as cluttered, but in the late game it can still get to pretty large armies with a lot on each individual planet. It's easy to tell the types apart, but can become harder to see a particular individual unit.

Regards,

- Erik

[Jorgen_CAB]

As I said... we are acting Armchair generals here... it remains to be seen.

I actually think the issue did exist in DW1 as well... it was more effective to build more ships than defend with troops on the ground and invade rather than defend there too.. but it remains to be seen.

[Erik Rutins]

The higher ground, in this case space, always will have some advantage. I think things end up similar to DW1 but with some additional options and gameplay considerations in the interaction between units and all the possible defense facilities. It's worth also noting that in DW2, until you get very good hyperdrives they have a pretty large accuracy issue, which results in attacking fleets having to jump in a bit farther from their targets for safety and making the final run to attack/bombard/invade on their sublight engines.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The higher ground, in this case space, always will have some advantage. I think things end up similar to DW1 but with some additional options and gameplay considerations in the interaction between units and all the possible defense facilities. It's worth also noting that in DW2, until you get very good hyperdrives they have a pretty large accuracy issue, which results in attacking fleets having to jump in a bit farther from their targets for safety and making the final run to attack/bombard/invade on their sublight engines.

Yes... that is definitely an improvement over DW1 where it was quite easy to jump in and dump troops on a planet. I think that is quite a good balance change.

It also seem like you will have to gather the force above the planet in order to coordinate the drop so they don't drop in piece meal and that is also going to take time.

[StormingKiwi]

I think that is a ship or fleet setting that people haven't been using in the dropdowns, "invade immediately".

If not included, I think there should be an option for coordinated actions across fleets.

E.g. coordinated hyperjumps. Sins of a Solar Empire had that and that came out in 2008.

[Nabobalis]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Nabobalis,

Our eventual second pass on the ground combat UI will likely see something like that, but not at release. You typically need/have fewer individual units now than in DW2, so it's not quite as cluttered, but in the late game it can still get to pretty large armies with a lot on each individual planet. It's easy to tell the types apart, but can become harder to see a particular individual unit.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks for the update!

[Pocus]

What are the collateral damages expected when a world is taken over? If there is none or only minor ones, then a good strategy (which I believe is not very realistic, at least for democratic governments) would be "do not defend and invade back".
Now if some population is killed or there is a chance for each building that it is destroyed, I can see a value in defending all your colonies, even if it is a large burden to your treasury.

[Erik Rutins]

Population loss, facility damage and quality damage to the world can happen in any invasion. Multiple repeated invasions or counter-invasions can take a significant toll.

[Pocus]

Excellent then.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

As I said... we are acting Armchair generals here... it remains to be seen.

I actually think the issue did exist in DW1 as well... it was more effective to build more ships than defend with troops on the ground and invade rather than defend there too.. but it remains to be seen.

I find it works totally different in DW1.

In DW1, one Spaceport - even a small one - could shoot down any transports that even looked at the planet funny.
You had to send in the fleet to kill the spaceports and defense stations, before you could even think about invading the planet.
Same with Pirates.

In DW2, the spaceport can only cover a small fraction of the planetary space. Any Escorts will propably be a few days out. But even if they shoot the transprots, there is a low chance they will actually force any of them to retreat. Nevermind destroy one of them before it deploys.

This is a particular issue for Pirate Raids as in the Stream Version. By the second they launched their pods, you can do nothign to change the outcome:
You can not recruit more troops.
No reinforcement troops or general transfer will reach in time.
Driving away the ship will do nothing.

As so many thematics, I had some ideas about it.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
In DW1, one Spaceport - even a small one - could shoot down any transports that even looked at the planet funny.
You had to send in the fleet to kill the spaceports and defense stations, before you could even think about invading the planet.
Same with Pirates.

No, there were plenty of times in DW1 when a single spaceport could not stop all the troop transports.

In DW2, the spaceport can only cover a small fraction of the planetary space. Any Escorts will propably be a few days out. But even if they shoot the transprots, there is a low chance they will actually force any of them to retreat. Nevermind destroy one of them before it deploys.

A spaceport can end up covering about 2/3rds, then you have defensive bases and planetary facilities you can add as well. If you have a defensive fleet in the system, that will of course help a lot too. I've seen troop transports forced to retreat or destroyed quite often. Even in the preview videos I've seen invasions deterred by one spaceport and a defensive fleet.

This is a particular issue for Pirate Raids as in the Stream Version. By the second they launched their pods, you can do nothign to change the outcome:
You can not recruit more troops.
No reinforcement troops or general transfer will reach in time.
Driving away the ship will do nothing.

This is intended with pirate raids. You're typically looking at worlds with very few defenses in those cases and a pirate ship or two has an easy time dropping off some raiders. Later on, the pirates get destroyed if they try that, it's only an early game thing.

You can recruit more troops but yes it's a bit late if it's a quick raid that's already underway. In a prolonged battle on a large colony, especially one with recruitment/recovery bonuses, new troops can potentially enter the battle before it's over but it's best to prepare your defenses before an invasion.

Regards,

- Erik