US Road Block teams way too powerful

[jzardos]

I've now had enough experience playing the Germans and running into these what seem insignificant US Road Block Team units when it comes to combat PP, to understand something is really wrong here. Why the heck are these teams so tough and resistance to arty. They are only a handful of men with some zookas and maybe few AT guns. Yet they will hold up against ridiculous odds, sometimes from many sides. I know historically some of these teams performed well but all many of these teams were simply brushed aside. Just read "Battle, Story of the Bulge" by John Toland if you don't know better. But in this game every single Road Block Team fights like superheros and I can't even play this game any more until this is balanced out. I know these games can't be completely aligned when it comes to historical unit abilities, but this is just so twisted and unhistorical that I can't support the game any more. Sorry.

Curious to see the developer defend his idea on why these units are supermen.

[Capt Cliff]

I wipe them out with arty! Now I am playing a solitaire game face to face so that might be a reason. If you are playing against the computer then yeah it make sense they would be tougher and require a combined assault to take them out. IMHO.

[warnevada]

It's not that they're powerful, it's that they're small. It's a quirk of the combat mechanics. There is a feature called Max Attacks which simulates the confusion and loss of effectiveness when there are too many troops attacking, basically they get in each other's way. The combat mechanics penalize every shot at a given target over a base number by an increasing penalty until the shots are basically ineffective. Because roadblocks are small a normal sized unit attacking will take a lot of shots at each element of the roadblock and consequently the shots miss. So if you know you're facing a road block, you will do better if you attack with smaller, fewer units. Artillery works because this penalty does not apply to artillery barrages, but artillery is basically ineffective in heavy forest and towns.

[James Taylor]

You know what else is overpowered, US engineers and there are too many of them also, not to mention the many combat teams that the combat commands of US armored divisions deploy.

[Capt Cliff]

You know what else is overpowered, US engineers and there are too many of them also, not to mention the many combat teams that the combat commands of US armored divisions deploy.

So you are stating why the US Army was able to defeat the German Army? The US engineers fought like infantry, with C-4 too, and the Combat Command system out did the Kraut Kampfgruppe system!

[Vic]

Hi,

I leave the engineer question to davide.

As for the road blocks. I am open to looking at a savefile for reconsidering my position. Please send to vic@vrdesigns.net with link to this thread and instructions where to attack.

Muy position is that under suboptimal circumstances it can well take a day (4 rounds) to take out a unit (say) 10 times smaller if it is entrenched in a town or a village. Anybody following the war in ukraine?

That being said it is on my to do list for a bit of nudging, but dont ecpect radical change.

Best wishes
Vic

[Jagger2002]

Personally, I have never seen roadblocks as too strong. Howver they can be tough if they have time to heavily entrench into a strong defensive hex. My biggest reservation about roadblocks is the lack of a German roadblock option.

[nikdav]

You know what else is overpowered, US engineers and there are too many of them also, not to mention the many combat teams that the combat commands of US armored divisions deploy.

I deploy on map only known engineer combat battalions (ECB), less than 50% of all the Allied engineers.
All Services, construction, road maintenance, bridge and pontoon units , like the German Brucko kolonne and Todt working units were off map.

By the way the battle was won by the US artillery and "those damned engineers " !

Here a very interesting free Jstor article: "engineers in the Battle of the bulge"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... G6g2QF1DeA

[Agema]

It's not the block teams that bother me, it's the whole battalions. I've been trying the Wacht am Rhein campaign: I've captured St. Vith and Bastogne by the 18th and Malmedy on the 19th. I reckon I'll be able to force Vielsalm maybe on the 20th, but beyond that the offensive is effectively over except grinding a few kilometres here and there.

My armoured battalions have been depleted (~5-10 tanks lost per airstrike or combat will do that) and I don't have anything like enough supplies to sustain a fighting advance except on a very limited front, even playing the supply cards. I look at my own reinforcement divisions with horror, because all it seems like to me is even more guns that I lack the ammo to fill with.

May as well switch to defence and chew up as many American units as possible - at least then I might still be holding some of those gains at the end.

[James Taylor]

Yep, I've been playing this scenario frontwards and backwards since the game first came out and its likely impossible to achieve the historic gains the Germans made in the real battle!

[James Taylor]

Once I made it to Liege with Peiper when the fuel bug was active but now it seems that the supply system has gotten overly restrictive.

Been able to manage the fuel system satisfactorily, but the game boils down to overcoming roadblock after roadblock; maneuvering around them in adverse conditions(mud) eats up all the APs. Then being unable to attack with decent odds mostly from artillery being noneffective due to ammunition shortages as well as combat units that don't resupply adequately.

Rinse and repeat turn after turn in any dates after the 18th of December.

I have tried activating all the reserve units, playing all the supply cards without any semblance of success.

Like I said before all these US detachments showing up constantly all over the map in chokepoint deployments severely limit the German progress over and above what actually occurred.

[Agema]

Like I said before all these US detachments showing up constantly all over the map in chokepoint deployments severely limit the German progress over and above what actually occurred.

Yes. I can see sort of platoon/company sized units used for delaying tactics, but not whole battalions in the way the AI uses them. This sort of tactic in the real world would work, but would also be sending unnecessary amounts of troops to be chewed up by superior numbers. A commander with plenty of miles to spare would probably concede territory rather than lives, building a defensive line to the rear.

[James Taylor]

Bulletin: Just outside Bastogne both battalions of the 901st Pz G. with stug and recon support stopped cold..........by.........wait for it..... US 2nd, 6th & 7th truck columns, that's right trucks!

[SwampYankee68]

Bulletin: Just outside Bastogne both battalions of the 901st Pz G. with stug and recon support stopped cold..........by.........wait for it..... US 2nd, 6th & 7th truck columns, that's right trucks!

oof. That's crazy.

[Oberst_Klink]

Bulletin: Just outside Bastogne both battalions of the 901st Pz G. with stug and recon support stopped cold..........by.........wait for it..... US 2nd, 6th & 7th truck columns, that's right trucks!

oof. That's crazy.

I'd have used ranged attack to knock out the lorries. Would like to see the screenshot though.

Klink, Oberst

[Agema]

Bulletin: Just outside Bastogne both battalions of the 901st Pz G. with stug and recon support stopped cold..........by.........wait for it..... US 2nd, 6th & 7th truck columns, that's right trucks!

Did you also lose ~5 stugs to "Att accident" or mechanical failure when you assaulted them? That's my general experience. Nothing like a guarantee that a load of your tanks magically just die every time you use them.

As a rule, I find stugs weak and hetzers almost pointless. I tried using them to bolster infantry units menaced by those big ~60-70 tank armoured battalions, because I thought they should be good in defence. Unfortunately, when the AI attacks with ranged fire, they are hopelessly outclassed. Which seems quite odd, when you think about what a tank destroyer is supposed to do.

[Oberst_Klink]

Bulletin: Just outside Bastogne both battalions of the 901st Pz G. with stug and recon support stopped cold..........by.........wait for it..... US 2nd, 6th & 7th truck columns, that's right trucks!

Did you also lose ~5 stugs to "Att accident" or mechanical failure when you assaulted them? That's my general experience. Nothing like a guarantee that a load of your tanks magically just die every time you use them.

As a rule, I find stugs weak and hetzers almost pointless. I tried using them to bolster infantry units menaced by those big ~60-70 tank armoured battalions, because I thought they should be good in defence. Unfortunately, when the AI attacks with ranged fire, they are hopelessly outclassed. Which seems quite odd, when you think about what a tank destroyer is supposed to do.

My Stugs and Hetzers are doing quite well against US/British armour; of course I chose a good position before I attempt to turkey-shoot them.

Klink, Oberst

[Vic]

I looked into the topic of this discussion and I have to conclude that I see no problem with small units being more powerful than they should be.

And yes a truck column will still slow down panzers... They still have to take out every truck, make prisoners, some drivers and staff might resist. Its a huge holdup to have a few 100 vehicles blocking a road.

[Agema]

I don't mind the idea that a convoy can present substantial hindrance and risk of casualties. Nor do I mind the idea that even a small remnant needs a delay to mop up.

But I do struggle to accept losing 3 Panthers just to clear two trucks blocking a road.

[carll11]

I don't mind the idea that a convoy can present substantial hindrance and risk of casualties. Nor do I mind the idea that even a small remnant needs a delay to mop up.

But I do struggle to accept losing 3 Panthers just to clear two trucks blocking a road.

The only answer to this dilemma is an overrun rule and.......I dont think we are going to see one