Should Vladivostok be a fort?

[Chernobyl]

For those who are experts on the Soviet Far East, did the defenses around Vladivostok constitute something of quality and scale of other forts on the game map? Were there fortifications on the hex to the east of Vladivostok? Basically I'm considering adding some defenses in my mod

[Platoonist]

For those who are experts on the Soviet Far East, did the defenses around Vladivostok constitute something of quality and scale of other forts on the game map? Were there fortifications on the hex to the east of Vladivostok? Basically I'm considering adding some defenses in my mod

I would tend to concur with Vladivostok possibly being a fortress on par with Sevastopol. In War in the Pacific; Admiral's Edition, not only is Vladivostok's Siberian border with Manchuria lined with fortified regions, but the city itself is home to a rather impressive array of coastal artillery, not to mention a swarm of rifle divisions and naval brigades. It seems like the place would have been a tough nut to crack.

Vladivostok CD guns.jpg (148.89 KiB) Viewed 1212 times

[firsteds]

There was a massive fort at Vladivostok from the first Russia-Japan war and WW1 era. Abandoned in 1923 it was re-equipped in the 1930s with modern gun batteries. The extensive tunnels and gun emplacements are a tourist site now with a museum. IRL they never fired a shot in anger. In most of my PBEM games Vlad is a key battle! The fort seems to be sea facing (like Singapore) but might have still been useful in a siege. I can't find a good map of the fortifications anywhere sorry.

[firsteds]

And here is a link to a site describing the fortress, including a section on the Vlad 'Maginot Line' which seems to indicate it was indeed a proper all round fortress during WW2:

http://vladfortress.h1n.ru/?page_id=740

Note they also had massive Railway guns in Vlad during WW2!

[Platoonist]

This map shows the positions of the fortified regions on the Manchurian border between Vladivostok and Lake Hanka.

Soviet Border Positions.jpg (154.26 KiB) Viewed 1136 times

[BillRunacre]

For some reason I can't open the .jpgs you've attached Platoonist, can you email them to me please?

Thanks

bill.runacre@furysoftware.com

[Platoonist]

For some reason I can't open the .jpgs you've attached Platoonist, can you email them to me please?

Thanks

bill.runacre@furysoftware.com

Sorry Bill, attachments on this forum were not showing for most of the day. Now they seem to be functioning again....for the moment.

The URs mentioned in the West Point Atlas map above stood for ukreplyonny raion, or ukrepraion. In the military terminology of the Soviet Union, a ukrepraion is a territory within which a complex system of defense fortifications was engineered. Basically, a fortified region.

The Red Army for years labored on a robust fortification program along the borders with Manchuria that involved the construction of hundreds of hardened fighting positions backed by trenches, known as "Tochkas" (points). There were three types of Tochkas, DOTs (permanent fire points), SOTs (disappearing fire points), and LOTs (dummy fire points). The most common form of DOT built by the Soviets in the Far East was hexagonal in shape, with an interior diameter of 5–6 m (16–20 ft) for the smaller bunkers and up to 10 m (33 ft) for larger ones. They protruded approximately 2 m (6.6 ft) above ground level, with the outer wall facing the front made of solid concrete 1 m (3.3 ft) or more thick. The backbone of the Soviet defenses, DOTs usually contained two or three machine guns; some were equipped with one or two 76 mm guns. The Soviets arranged their DOTs into belts: depending on the terrain, the strongpoints were spaced out over 400–600 m (440–660 yd) intervals and positioned in two to four rows 300–1,000 m (330–1,090 yd) deep from one another. According to Japanese intelligence, by late 1941 the Tochkas were evenly distributed among 12 fortified regions fronting Manchuria.

Given how difficult they are to demolish, plenty of these concrete sentinels are still there.

Tochka.jpg (244.52 KiB) Viewed 1024 times

[BillRunacre]

Ah, good to see it's working now, thanks!

It's interesting, though I'm tempted to wait until we have more feedback on balance before committing to any changes here, as some expressed a concern when the last patch was released that the game might now be too pro-Allied.

But I've made a note of this and we'll see how the dust settles...

[Chernobyl]

Attached is a pic of what I imagine the Vladivostok fortifications might look like.

I would also note that if you change Vladivostok (city that produces 10 MPP) to a Fortress City (produces 0 MPP) then there is an economic change to both 1) USSR and 2) a Japan that captures Vladivostok. Here are some ideas for how to "even out" the MPP/economic effects of removing the city:

Orsk + Orel + Zhitomir + Jakutsk settlements -> towns
Kazan town -> city (large city, major industrial center)
Ufa town -> city (major industrial center)
Barnaul town -> city? (Wikipedia says ammunition factory form Leningrad was evacuated to Barnaul and it the city produced "over half of the USSR's light ammunition during WWII")

[ThunderLizard11]

I like this change. Too easy to take out currently and Soviets need a boost. This one is modest.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Wow Chernobyl, I like this too! Played a lot of Sino-USSR war simulations back in the day, particularly SPI's monster game Objective Moscow and others. Vladivostok and environs were heavily fortified in those games. Also reminds me of the deal we were involved in with SC-WW1 last year, making Trento a fort, which you initially advocated and I tested and presented on the forum last year I believe. The dev's added it in a patch, and it fixed the Alpine Front issue...as now it very difficult to take Trento. It was never taken by the Italians historically, and now it takes serious effort to capture with the current version.
Here's a link to that thread...with an AAR test towards the end: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0#p4764170

[Chernobyl]

You guys are gentlemen.

My general feel is that had the Japanese attacked as planned in 1941, it wouldn't have been a pushover. I mean they were debating whether to attack north as a complete alternative to the Southern Operation, not as a side quest. But in game it's pretty easy to attack the USSR almost as an afterthought (partly because it's possible to knock China out before 1942, but that's another story). So it feels to me that USSR should get some forts there to at least make it slightly more difficult.

[Elessar2]

You can change fort town/city income in the editor, note.