Taking Poland on the 1st Turn-Pros and Cons?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

It's easy to do in WaW. Was wondering what ramifications this has (mobilization increases-decreases or other issues) and opinions held by players concerning this move.
Planning another MP match soon..as Axis. Seems a bit gamey..but I have done it before.
Still, it may have its merits...but I am curious of any negative game mechanics wise that maybe in store for the Axis.

[ThunderLizard11]

I thought there was a Russian mobilization bonus that doesn't fire if you get Poland turn 1

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I thought there was a Russian mobilization bonus that doesn't fire if you get Poland turn 1

Indeed. Ran a few hotseat tests. So the Soviets were at 25% Mobilization on Turn 1 (Sept 1, 1939). On Turn 2 (Sept 29, 1939), they are holding at 25%.
Also restrained myself to destroy the minimal amount of Polish forces on my way to Warsaw...so ended up with 206 MMP plunder. Some could argue that destroying more Poles would gain more experience for the German units participating in the slaughter, but having this plunder available on the 2nd Turn sure is sure an argument to do this thing.

Poland 2nd Turn.jpg (472.72 KiB) Viewed 2884 times

[LoneRunner]

I'm pretty sure a first turn surrender of Poland results in a 5% shift in Russian mobilization. I've checked Russian mobilization on my last four MP matches. Every time Russia mobilization is at 25 with a one turn surrender and 20 with a second turn surrender.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I'm pretty sure a first turn surrender of Poland results in a 5% shift in Russian mobilization. I've checked Russian mobilization on my last four MP matches. Every time Russia mobilization is at 25 with a one turn surrender and 20 with a second turn surrender.

Ah I see. Maybe its better long term (for the Axis) to take down Poland on the second turn. That 20% Soviet mobilization would be more detrimental to the Soviets in the long run. Thanks for the info!

[Bernhardotte]

I think the best option is to take Poland in second round, for the reasons given above, and in the first round already begin to transfer panzer corps and other units for early attack in the west. It is difficult to find the right balance though, you dont want battle in Poland to last more than 2 rounds, or let his units cut off supply lines.

That said, I would prefer that Russia get the war readiness hit by the partioning of Poland and not for taking part of the conquest. It feels wrong to me that Germany is punished gamewise by too fast success.

[ThunderLizard11]

I think the best option is to take Poland in second round, for the reasons given above, and in the first round already begin to transfer panzer corps and other units for early attack in the west. It is difficult to find the right balance though, you dont want battle in Poland to last more than 2 rounds, or let his units cut off supply lines.

That said, I would prefer that Russia get the war readiness hit by the partioning of Poland and not for taking part of the conquest. It feels wrong to me that Germany is punished gamewise by too fast success.

I actually prefer Germany gets slap with a penalty as for one a first turn surrender is gamey and should be punished and two German has the benefir of all units moving to Western front on a first turn surrender.

[Chernobyl]

My feeling is it's generally better to capture Warsaw turn 1 (not sure how to absolutely guarantee this results in Polish surrender, though). Especially if you are aiming to attack in the West ASAP. In addition to speed, it also gives you plunder and MPP production slightly faster which is always nice. It takes away a chance for your opponent to claw away a few points of damage with with their remaining forces in counterattacks. I actually avoid capturing Czestochowa mine in order to keep it from getting damaged (it seems this is what Old Crow did also based off his screenshot).

The most important guarantee to capture Warsaw is to use your Medium Bomber (swap it with a fighter plane or the Von Bock HQ; probably better to use a fighter plane because you can move your HQ to command some of your Westwall forces against a French attack) and use that bomber to hit Warsaw before your tanks. When I do this I take Warsaw 100% of the time and never need to use the XXI corps (in East Prussia) to occupy the city (or for anything, really). I wind up occupying Warsaw with a tank. The 4th Panzer (in the south) can always attack Warsaw twice and then march in, provide you completely clear the path for this unit, so the 3rd Panzer (in the north) doesn't necessarily need to use an optimal route to Warsaw, it just needs to arrive adjacent to the capital. It's important to clear the path for your tanks and utilize the move-attack movement point saving feature/bug. I keep the tactical bombers in reserve to either hit Warsaw once entrenchment is at 0, or to finish off some str-1 enemy unit if necessary (swap the southern bomber with Von Rundstedt if somehow the Warsaw garrison is still alive after all 4 tank attacks).

Subjectively I've found that the more Polish units I destroy, the more likely Poland surrenders immediately. But I don't know if this is related to morale or unit count, or if it's just a placebo effect.

[Chernobyl]

Oh but I didn't know turn 1 penalizes Germany by increasing Soviet mobilization. That changes things.

[LoneRunner]

According to the manual (section 7.5) the chance of a minor country to continue fighting is adjusted 6% for each remaining unit within the home country.

That 6% adds up quick. Only 5 remaining units and you got 30% chance of Poland continuing to fight. Get extra plunder for remaining units and risk an extra turn? Not me. I usually kill every Polish unit within reach in order to avoid that possibility.

[Bavre]

Afaik Poland counts as a major country, so they should have only a 3% chance per unit. In the game I'm currently playing I captured Warsaw on turn 1 but they fought on. On the bright side I could farm a ton of xp (esp HQ xp here). I know I'm a bit obsessive with xp, but it's just sooooo useful in the long run. Just having your fighter harrass some Garrison or Cav gives 0.1 xp per turn at zero risk or cost...

[Bernhardotte]

I actually prefer Germany gets slap with a penalty as for one a first turn surrender is gamey and should be punished and two German has the benefir of all units moving to Western front on a first turn surrender.

what do you consider gamey about it? The swapping of aircraft to get extra range for the bombers?

[LoneRunner]

Afaik Poland counts as a major country, so they should have only a 3% chance per unit. In the game I'm currently playing I captured Warsaw on turn 1 but they fought on. On the bright side I could farm a ton of xp (esp HQ xp here). I know I'm a bit obsessive with xp, but it's just sooooo useful in the long run. Just having your fighter harrass some Garrison or Cav gives 0.1 xp per turn at zero risk or cost...

Thanks Bavre. I need to be reminded that Poland is actually a major.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I can see both pro and con with taking Poland on Turn 1 after reading these comments. One thing about WaW, there are less turns in a year than lets say WiE (Which has a larger map I understand), so I noticed time is really against Germany if a player wants to keep up at least to the historical timeline. I also was talking to a few people off forum about this, and it seems after discussing with them, the thought was that both alternatives are mutually fine depending on what the Axis strategy is. I even discussed this with an opponent (and friend) that I am going to start a future match with. He didn't have a problem with it if it happens he see's the benefit for the Soviets haha.

The gamey component of doing a first turn take down? I personally on the fence about that but leaning to 'kind of' gamey. It does require the shift\switch of the medium bomber to pull this off so that the medium bomber can target Warsaw...at least as far as I know. That part of the package definitely is unsavory.."What is it? A last minute airfield swap?" Guess it could be consider so.

Anyway..something to ponder..this stratagem, if it can be called that.

[BillRunacre]

The gamey component of doing a first turn take down? I personally on the fence about that but leaning to 'kind of' gamey. It does require the shift\switch of the medium bomber to pull this off so that the medium bomber can target Warsaw...at least as far as I know. That part of the package definitely is unsavory.."What is it? A last minute airfield swap?" Guess it could be consider so.

Hi

Just to clarify here that the German Medium Bomber only starts slightly out of range of Warsaw because there isn't a suitable hex where it could start in range in that area, other than placing it in the middle of a forest or next to the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade.

They could and did bomb Warsaw from day one, so I wouldn't personally have a problem with a player doing this, particularly as they will incur a morale penalty for doing so.

[Chernobyl]

Personally I kind of like the swap mechanics. You can do weird things like sea transport when starting from a non-port hex, repair a ship that didn't start in port... you can even move a unit into a hex and keep some of your entrenchment via swapping (not sure how this works, it seems to be 50% of one of the two unit's entrenchment not sure which one).
The only kind of swapping I find to be bad is when you can place a unit on a hex it normally would never be able to get to, like "high mountains" in SC-WWI.

Is the Soviet mobilization discrepancy for 1-turn vs 2-turn intended? I'm not sure Stalin would have cared very much whether the Germans took Warsaw in 2 weeks vs 6 weeks.

[Zeckke]

well, Even if you capture Warsaw, in one turn, Poland can not surrender, conquering warsaw, not always surrender Poland (There are another factor), so one point for conquering warsaw in one turn,

once, i conquering warsaw, first move but the next two turns bad weather so, i do prefer conquering in two, and have GOOD weather next turn

[Zuxius]

I wouldn't even remotely argue for a Turn 2 surrender. If you can do it every time on Turn 1, do it. As said above, the income increase isn't just nice, but vital to getting what you need to take France. I've been tooling with an all in France strategy and it's brutal. You want to get ahead of that game before the Allies get their numbers up. If you drag your way to summer '40 and NOT early spring, you're hosed. There's just 2-3 turns (during spring) where you can catch the Allies still reinforcing vital units. Attacking with your forces then, prepared or not, will make all the difference in catching the Allies by surprise with shock and awe. I would say you have just 1-2 turns if it's Poland captured on Turn 2.

[Zuxius]

I might also add that it'd be nice if someone did a step by step on how to do it because I'm not sure how.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I might also add that it'd be nice if someone did a step by step on how to do it because I'm not sure how.

Here's an inelegant way to see how its done from the Axis P.OV. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFAdVkOVE48&t=449s

Here's what it looks like from the Allied P.O.V. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVod5srz0EU&t=1516s