Sub Torp reload

[Zeta16]

I guess I have never known this, but where can subs load torps. I am thinking Nomuea, Brisbane, and Truk.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

I guess I have never known this, but where can subs load torps. I am thinking Nomuea, Brisbane, and Truk.

Anywhere they can find 3 points of supply. (Actually, I think it is 3 points of supply per torpedo). I like to capture a small dot hex close to the enemy and drop about 100 supply there by sub transport. Then that dot becomes my sub re-arming base. It works wonders, really. The subs still have to go home for fuel but you don't feel so bad when the sub fires a full spread of torpedoes against a sub chaser.

[bilbow]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn


Anywhere they can find 3 points of supply. (Actually, I think it is 3 points of supply per torpedo). I like to capture a small dot hex close to the enemy and drop about 100 supply there by sub transport. Then that dot becomes my sub re-arming base. It works wonders, really. The subs still have to go home for fuel but you don't feel so bad when the sub fires a full spread of torpedoes against a sub chaser.

A bit on the gamey side, don't you think?

[LordHawke]

ORIGINAL: bilbow

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn


Anywhere they can find 3 points of supply. (Actually, I think it is 3 points of supply per torpedo). I like to capture a small dot hex close to the enemy and drop about 100 supply there by sub transport. Then that dot becomes my sub re-arming base. It works wonders, really. The subs still have to go home for fuel but you don't feel so bad when the sub fires a full spread of torpedoes against a sub chaser.

A bit on the gamey side, don't you think?

Well, it sounds like a good idea to me. [:D] I just might try it out on the AI.

It is possible to have torpedoes pre-positioned for replenishment (the Kriegsmarine had 'milchcow' subs to do just that in mid-Atlantic). The only difficulty from a realism POV is the process of loading torpedoes (which UV doesn't really model anyway). You can't really load 3-ton 21inch torpedoes into a sub by hand.

Historically, it seems (from a cursory Google search) that the IJN never developed this doctrine though. Then again, their sub doctrine was off-the-mark anyway.

[Gen.Hoepner]

Are you sure of that?
I think the subs can reload torp only at Noumea,Brisb and Truk...if i remember well the first times i played UV i thought any base could work fine for this aim, but i had to reconsider it because after few turns the subs weren't reloaded at normal bases even if supplied....
I'm going to take a look at this in game.

[Odin]

You can reload Torps at any base. I usually choose a base as close as possible to the enemy to shorten the submarines way to its destination.[;)]

[Hard Sarge]

Subs can reload at any base (not sure if there is a size limit or not)

I use Gili Gili and Tulugi (?) as my main sub bases once the Off gets going, build up the ports, keep some fuel and supplies there, and you are set to go

HARD_Sarge

think you guys are getting the mines mixed up with the Trops

you got to go to those bases you list to load mines

[Gen.Hoepner]

Yes,i made a mess between mines and torps^_^

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: bilbow

A bit on the gamey side, don't you think?

No, it's not a bit gamey... it's a whole lot gamey! [:)]
I rationalize it because my stupid subs are always forced to fire a full spread at every worthless target they run across. Nothing like treking all the way across the map only to since a 1 point sub chaser and then have to trek all the way back for more torpedoes. Noumea is a hell of a way away from any Japanese base.

[mbatch729]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
[Noumea is a hell of a way away from any Japanese base.

Not is some of my games [X(]

[Nomad]

True, Lugganville is not far from Nouema. [:D]

I use level 5+ ports for torp reloads. Just my own thing. I think it balances out.

[smallie1]

maybe say if you want to use a forward base that a seaplane tender must be present? That could simulate the support needed.

[denisonh]

It is something that is very gamey, and like Nomad, I limit my use of forward bases to port level 6 or higher to represent the handling and storage requirements for Torpedoes.

I also set up a patrol "rotation" as Allies to keep a certain number of subs on station, so subs get a "rest" in between patrols if their sys damage is above 6. Helps to use a higher level port, as the subs will work of damage quickly at a port 9.

Should be looked at for "fixing" in WitP.

[Subchaser]

This is what I’m using in my pbems:

Subs can base (refuel, rearm, repair) only at Truk and Brisbane. Subs can refuel and rearm at Rabaul and Noumea also (but not to repair there). If sub has critical float/fire damage, ship can go to the nearest friendly port for urgent repairs, but operational damage still should be repaired at Truk/Brisbane.

Beside the rule, I always give sub crew returned from a long patrol 1 or 2 weeks of rest in Truk/Brisbane and never send sub to patrol with more than 5 op. damage.

I guess it should be modified because efficiency of sub warfare decrease dramatically, it could be okay without that annoying feature to fire only salvos, even if target is slightly bigger than torpedo.

[Hard Sarge]

I think you guys are getting carried away

where or what size base did you need to base PT boats at ?

and what did they carry ? you dropped off 55 Gallon tanks of fuel and Trops in a area where you could park the boat, and set up a crain to load the fuel and Trops needed for the boats to reload

some of the PT bases were not anything we would call bases in the game

if you can make a port on a base, it should be able to support SUBS

you want to give them R@R great (I try to also) but don't make rules that make no sense

HARD_Sarge

[Subchaser]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think you guys are getting carried away

where or what size base did you need to base PT boats at ?

and what did they carry ? you dropped off 55 Gallon tanks of fuel and Trops in a area where you could park the boat, and set up a crain to load the fuel and Trops needed for the boats to reload

some of the PT bases were not anything we would call bases in the game

if you can make a port on a base, it should be able to support SUBS

you want to give them R@R great (I try to also) but don't make rules that make no sense

HARD_Sarge

It’s not that simple Sarge, port there, move crane and torps and here we go. Historically there were only 3 submarine bases in South Pacific, accessible by UV player – Brisbane, Truk and Rabaul, these bases had torpedoes, repair facilities, sub tenders with spare parts, after usually pretty long patrols sub crews could get appropriate rest there. Submarine, in comparison with all other warships had very limited space onboard where a crew could rest, no such space actually. If you dock CA or even DD at, let say Lunga with 2 size port, CA crew do not fully experience all that pretty stuff like mosquitoes, bad food, wet clothes etc. as their ground partners do, they stay onboard in somewhat comfortable conditions. They can stay there for a couple of months without serious fatigue and morale penalty. But if you dock sub there, these guys rather stay onboard, and it’s just like being on patrol for them, or either go ashore, where, at such ‘nice’ places, conditions are barely better. Sub with exhausted crew with low morale lose its combat readiness.

Besides that, even if some minor mechanism is out of order it can cause major problem for sub in combat, while surface ship can do very well with some pumps out or any other secondary devices unserviceable. That’s why submarine should receive full and authoritative technical treatment every time ship returns to port. Here is another in-game shortcoming becomes clearly visible, at every port you have, qualified mechanics, specific equipment and facilities are available a priori, even if there are no other troops at all. You can dock ships there and all those complicated procedures take place, while in reality it’s impossible without additional port personnel. Why I should think that so numerous additional port personnel is available while other troops modeled as separate units are in shortage as it was in reality? Well, I can understand when port like Gili Gili is built up to 6-7 size and several base forces stationed there, forward or even major submarine base could be moved there. But when subs use ports like Lunga, Tulagi, Nevea etc. it’s gamey. Read Lockwood, chapters covering 1942 early ’43. Shortage of torpedoes, spare parts, trained personnel and how hard it was to make even forward submarine base.

But main problem with ports in UV is that program does not take into account size of anchorages. You can dock 100 or even 200 ships at such a small place like Tulagi, and all these ships will be safe from sub attacks and will receive certain amount of repairs. When Japanese explored Tulagi anchorage they had concluded that this place is suitable only for seaplane tender base and as refueling point for vessels no larger than DD.

If you’ll accept the fact that all ports in game should have natural limits of their anchorages, you’ll realize that when you’re enlarging ports in UV, you do not make natural anchorage there any larger, if there is space only for 50 warships, you shouldn’t have ability to dock 100 there. In my understanding, when you’re building up ports, you just build additional warehouses, piers, breakwaters, enlarge waterways, place anti-torpedo nets and port cranes there, more of those you build faster your transports can unload and more supplies and fuel can be store there, nothing more, natural anchorage still has its natural size, which can be very very small.

Another problem is amount of supplies and fuel, which can be stored at largely undeveloped forward bases. You grab a base with potential port size of just 1 and can immediately move 100,000+ fuel and supplies there, in reality it will take several months to build such a huge warehouses and fuel tanks there.

There were a lot of problems with Noumea port still in 1943, not enough capacities to store all needed war materials there, load/unload operations were proceeding very slowly and this had great impact on combat operations speed, transports were waiting for 3-4 days to unload their cargo, and that was big port for South Pacific.

Of course, no wargame can simulate all these complicated matters absolutely realistic, there are some limits since it’s just a game actually, but if one wants to bring more realism into a wargame, house rules help a lot. I don’t use any rules that do not make sense Sarge.