Gamey alert!

[DavidDailey]

For Axis players trying to protect their fleet from destruction in the Baltic know that it is not enough to garrison Copenhagen and Hamburg. You need to put a corps on the Kiel Canal to prevent an enemy unit from landing there and having all the French ships pouring through. I am not even sure this is enough. Apparently the technicians manning the Kiel Canal open the locks for the Allies to conveniently pass through. I suppose this is a classic example of the "clever" gameplay that those who despise historicism admire.

[EarlyDoors]

The Kiel Canal starts the game in German hands
It remains in German hands unless the Allies take it
Sometimes this can be achieved by taking a neighbouring hex, normally Hamburg

[calcwerc]

First of all I dont appreciate that my game is called out as gamey. But on the other hand, if there is general agreement among ELO players that it is, the British move on the Kiel channel can be ruled out per house rule. I am always willing to discuss house rules, but preferably before the game begins.

For those who arent acquainted with the move, it can be done in four ways:
1. amphibious assualt on the hex with the Kieler channel
2. amphibious assualt on the hex between Jutland and Copenhagen
3. taking Copenhagen
4. using battleships to knock down the Copenhagen harbour to 0 will allow allied ships to slip through

In this game, I opted for number 1 and used the French commando corps for the mission. Though this didnt happen in history, I regard it as a move compared to other risky moves done by axis and allied special troops throughout the war and in my book it is not gamey/cheese. It is some investment necessary, some planning and it can be countered in several different ways:

German corps on Kieler Channel. If you keep a fighter back, you can much more easily protect your ships against carriers. If you have a naval bomber you can hit back. You can hide your ships in the Baltic or elsewhere. You can make it a trap with AA. Etc. etc.

Besides: You get a much more difficult defensive position by taking Danmark as it gives the Allies four (instead of one) different ways to attack Baltic, see screenshot. I almost always refrain from early occupation of Denmark for this reason. Of course, Britain can still attack at neutral Denmark, but it costs war readiness for US/Russia and I guess a NM hit (?)

@ DavidDailey: I play this game for fun. If it is no fun for you after this move, we can stop the game. I have no problem with not letting it count in the ELO ranking for that matter.

[Calaf]

Why should this be considered gamey?? It's a high risk/high yield move, and a prudent German should always guard this important channel for its fleet.

[DavidDailey]

Correct me if I am wrong in my thinking about what is required to stop this and other Allied sneak attacks on the Baltic area. A corps at least in Bremen, Hamburg, Kiel Canal, Copenhagen and space next to Copenhagen. Maybe a sub on Copenhagen port to slow down its' reduction by surface ships. If Denmark is not occupied by the Axis I find it hard to believe any readiness hit obviates the tremendous advantages Allied occupation of Denmark provides. The Allies will play havoc in the Baltic forever. The German surface vessels have to stay in port. They will easily be hunted down by subs and French surface vessels if they leave the modest protection the port allows. And here is where the game breaks down historically. Anyone who thinks the Prince of Wales could have sailed through the Kiel Canal or the narrow channels around Copenhagen and blasted the German fleet is truly living in "cloud cukkoo land". The only real solution would be to put the German surface vessels on a production queue at the beginning of the game. If the Axis player wants to risk bringing them in for whatever purpose he can, whenever he wants. As it is right now, those German surface vessels are just too juicy a target to pass up. The same problem exists in the Mediterranean. How can the Italian player protect all those surface vessels from being wiped out? After all, all those French ships just disappear when France falls. Use em up while you can. Kinda strange that the Allied player knows before the game starts France will surrender and her fleet just goes away. Oh, well.

[calcwerc]

To stop this you need a corp at the Kieler Channel and not taking Denmark. But it is true that you will also want to protect Hamburg (not because of Baltic fleet move, but because it is a NM city), so two corps will need to defend the German coast altogether. With this you can stop UK from doing this move at this stage in the game. Remember: UK cant attack Italian and German Fleet efficently at once, so if UK decided (as I did) to opt for the Baltic, and you have garrisoned correctly as pointed above, I wasted a chance to go after both. Thats a gamble too.

If UK goes after a neutral Denmark, Germany can quickly conquer it. Then they can trap the UK fleet in the Baltic and kill it with subs and Luftwaffe. A substantially weakend Royal Navy might not be able to protect the convoys later.

About French ships: No experienced player will lightly let the Axis kill these ships. It might make the French defeat come sooner due to NM losses, and it will give Axis units more experience and also a NM bonus. You probably cant kill a decent protected Italian fleet without help of English carriers. If Royal Navy goes to the Med, there are several counters to this move, one of them being Sealion.

Either way: Naval bomber should be early build for Germany and Italy if you have trouble defending their fleet.

There will always be some extent of historical knowledge in this game, for instance that France will surrender in 1940 when both players are at the same level, which will influence strategies. I therefore wrote at the beginning of the game that I would not conquer spawning points of axis units, which seems cheesey to me in this regard, but is being practiced in many ELO games currently.

I dont feel the same way about the move on the Baltic (which has been discusses in many threads on this forum, I didnt invent it), but I respect it if it takes the joy out from your game and would suggest that we stop the game and let it stay unrated. If we were to play again, we would then have to discuss the house rules prior to the game, so that it can be enjoyable for both sides.

[DavidDailey]

Calcwerc. You say you play the game for fun. I am curious. Was the game fun for you when you were being victimized by the ludicrous, outrageous, ahistorical allied invasions of the Japanese islands? I read your posts. It appears you have come to the conclusion this is such an unstoppable gamebreaker you won't do it and you think it needs to be addressed with what, the twentieth patch to fix it. The scandalous German attack through Strasbourg was recently addressed. I don't recall reading any posts about it. Maybe PMs were sent to Runacre. This scenario has been out for, what, two years and the gremlins are still sitting in their basements concocting preposterous ploys to gain unfair advantage. It all stems from the fact that at the beginning of the game each player has too much knowledge of what will happen, what his opponent will receive and can do. As the game moves along it is almost impossible to do anything that could be considered unfair because each person is making choices and has to live with them. That is not the case at the beginning of the game.

[calcwerc]

Well, first of all, I wasnt victimized to that strategy against Japan, but I also dont think it adds to the game. There are different houserules for this game when playing ELO league: no attack on Russia before 1941, no diplomacy on majors or Bulgaria. I wanted to add no attack on islands where units are spawned for the sake of stopping them from spawning. And I am thankful that developers are still patching and developing, but do think a houserule will do as well.

I see the Baltic (and the Medieterraen) in another light than you do. I have given account for the measures and countermeasures. Most ELO players I have played are aware of this and takes it into account. I explicitly asked for a veteran opponent, so I regarded you were as well. Perhaps you should have made clearer from the beginning that you want to play along strictly historical lines? You might be suprised, but I would have agreed to that as well.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Lol, I just tried the "gamey" British Invasion on the Japs, I lost twice. Against ThundarLizard, I attack every country in Asia and took them. Problem, USA never joined. Don't go crazy with the DOWs. Was gonna do it KlasE, well, modified version, IJN ambushed me turn before.

Far as the Baltic tricks of Allied Navies, typically early in the game when it matters. Gotta defend that area. All kinds of players send in Calvary Amphis, some crazy French scout landing. Gotta have German AA gun and some loser Garrison to plug holes. If you get really paranoid, just don't take Denmark.

[Marcinos1985]

What is gamey in this strategy? Germany doesn't protect crucial hexes, Allies take them and proceed with punishment.
If you play someone serious, suboptimal moves will be countered. Generally in every wargame leaving important stuff early asks for trouble.
BTW, this move is risky if KM is hidden in further ports and german aircraft is nearby. There are only 3 CV's that early in the game, if their strikes are intercepted (and GER has 3 fighters, they may send one on guarding duty), damage against KM will be minimized.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

What is gamey in this strategy? Germany doesn't protect crucial hexes, Allies take them and proceed with punishment.
If you play someone serious, suboptimal moves will be countered. Generally in every wargame leaving important stuff early asks for trouble.
BTW, this move is risky if KM is hidden in further ports and german aircraft is nearby. There are only 3 CV's that early in the game, if their strikes are intercepted (and GER has 3 fighters, they may send one on guarding duty), damage against KM will be minimized.

Right...and Kiel Canal is a high strategic asset. You can't mine it like you can in SC-WW1 (and believe me if the Entente can get away with that, they will.), there's no game mechanic to bomb and wreck the channel (Kiel bombed at least 90 times in WW2), so that leaves a 'special operation' by Amphibs if the Allies chose this risky venture.
Defending this locale should be relatively easy if desired early in the War, especially since a phalanx of Germans are moving to the West right after Poland.

[Taifun]

The Allied "Kiel Canal attack" is a universally accepted WAW strategy. For some years now this strategy has been used by all kinds of players. There are several AARs where players used it and explain it in detail (How the War went: Cpuncher (Allies) vs Fafnir v1.07 Full Game).