Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I play all my PBEMs with "House Rule" that no altitude above 20000 ft is allowed (almost 100% realistic in UV timeframe).
ORIGINAL: Subchaser
Why do you think that there was no high altitude combat in South Pacific in ’42-’43? Already in may’42 Zeros sometimes operated over PM as high as 30.000 ft. Of course major action was usually much lower, at 5000 –12000 ft, but high altitude engagements were not such a rare case to issue a special rule.
ORIGINAL: Subchaser
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I play all my PBEMs with "House Rule" that no altitude above 20000 ft is allowed (almost 100% realistic in UV timeframe).
Why do you think that there was no high altitude combat in South Pacific in ’42-’43? Already in may’42 Zeros sometimes operated over PM as high as 30.000 ft. Of course major action was usually much lower, at 5000 –12000 ft, but high altitude engagements were not such a rare case to issue a special rule.
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Subchaser
Why do you think that there was no high altitude combat in South Pacific in ’42-’43? Already in may’42 Zeros sometimes operated over PM as high as 30.000 ft. Of course major action was usually much lower, at 5000 –12000 ft, but high altitude engagements were not such a rare case to issue a special rule.
The only mention of such altitudes I found in Saburo Sakai's book.
I love that book and I have read it several times in past 10-15 years since I first noticed it but I found that statement very dubious.
The 30000 ft is almost 10 km and that's almost troposphere.
Almost all piston driven aircraft (especially those not purposely build for that altitude) would have _HUGE_ problems first going there and then doing something useful there.
Also we are talking about _EXTREME_ humid South Pacific where climbing to altitude is even harder.
And let us not forget special pressurized cabins, heating, clothes and other needed equipment...
Therefore, with all do respect, all altitudes above 20000 ft are really not historic at all for UV timeframe (1942/1943) and South Pacific...
Leo "Apollo11"
ORIGINAL: Howard Mitchell
John Lundstrom's 'The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign', ISBN 1-55750-526-8, gives details of the Japanese raids on Guadalcanal. They often would fly in well above 20,000 feet.
Just opening the book at random and choosing one incident, the 12th September raid (page 193), the G4Ms attacked from 27,880 feet (8,500m) with escorting A6Ms above and behind. They descended to 24,000 feet in a shallow dive to pick up speed for the bombing run and escape.
ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: Subchaser
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
I play all my PBEMs with "House Rule" that no altitude above 20000 ft is allowed (almost 100% realistic in UV timeframe).
Why do you think that there was no high altitude combat in South Pacific in ’42-’43? Already in may’42 Zeros sometimes operated over PM as high as 30.000 ft. Of course major action was usually much lower, at 5000 –12000 ft, but high altitude engagements were not such a rare case to issue a special rule.
What is your source for this? My understanding is that the zero performed very poorly at 20,000 feet. The same design features-high wing loading and large flaps that gave it the edge at medium altitudes, worked against it at higher altitudes. This was the case with virtually all first generation fighters. The wildcat, P40 and zero all did not work very well at high altitude.
At high altitude, where the air is thin, opposing forces tend to take effect and planes that perform well at low altitude tend to not do so higher up. The most important feature that a superior high altitude fighter has is lots of horsepower. (the zero had a low horsepower engine) In the thin air, it was much more important than sleek design. Look at the P47, who would think that fat ugly brute would have been one of the best high altitude fighters of the war. First generation planes were not designed for high altitudes-the zero included. Get them up to about 20,000 feet and they were all pigs. Forget about using the zero at 30,000.
ORIGINAL: Subchaser
Yes Sakai mentioned this as I remember, but let's start with the book which is on my table right now and I bet you have it too, it's Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky". Part 3 is full of examples. In my edition pages 472, 493, 496, 497, 498, 500, 503, 504… etc. and he11 many more. "Zeros at 26000 ft", "dive to 18000 ft", "fights started at 25000ft" "we were at 32000(!) ft". If you don't trust Bergerud or think that cited veterans didn't remember such details well enough, okay, let's approach this question from this point.
There a lot more trustworthy material which indicates that high altitude combat was nothing unusual in South Pacific in 1942-43. Of course such extreme altitudes were not the best place for ww2 planes to operate, but it were only bombers who kept high altitudes almost entire mission, fighters were always trying to climb as high as possible to get initial altitude advantage, the only limit was ceiling and cloud edge and in some cases type of the mission. Combat started at high altitudes inevitably went to medium and low altitudes soon after the first shot. The main goal was to engage enemy from as high as possible, to dive on him, not to wait him at 30000ft.
Pressurized cabin? Only B-29 was equipped with it, but combat at 35000 ft in ETO was common practice and there were no B-29s around. Clothes, high altitude gear? Look at numerous photos of that period, US and Japanese pilots often wear winter flying suits despite horrible heat and oxygen masks as well, there is no need for this if you're not going to climb really high.
Btw, troposphere starts from 15-16 km up to 20-22 km.
So, I cannot agree that high altitude combat in UV is not historic, it is.
As I remember you have implemented some very good house rules in your games, I even added a couple to my own set, but this one is bad, it steals some very good tactical schemes and makes air combat more predictable
