Harbor Patrols

[Macquarrie1999]

The game starts out with USS Ward acting as a harbor patrol for Pearl Harbor so I have been using small ships to act as harbor patrols in my busiest ports. However, even when I have seen a sub enter my port my ships don't react, so are they really necessary, or is it better to use those ships for convoy escort and hunting submarines?

[Maallon]

You need to set a patrol zone for the TF and increase the reaction range to a value greater than 0.
This way they can react to nearby subs during the turn resolution.

However, in order for them to be able to react to a sub, you must have a detection level on the sub.
Letting squadrons fly nav search on low altitude can help with this.

[WEXF]

Using PT boats as harbor patrols can be effective as well. They won't be able to damage the subs but subs will usually not waste torpedoes on them and just avoid doing anything that day. The same is often true for local minesweepers. Fly lots of low level naval searches at 1-2 hex ranges near your major ports.
WEXF

[dr.hal]

I'm curious as to why you have both recommended flying "nav search" by your patrol aircraft when I would have thought ASW patrol would be far more effective in terms of a sub threat? Maybe you have some rationale that I'm missing?

[WEXF]

In the early part of the war the Allies have mostly untrained pilots. To be likely to do damage to subs using ASW missions, pilots need to have ASW experience around 60. Also, ASW air missions can only be done at 50% of the normal range of aircraft while naval searches can be done at normal range. Also, just the flying of air searches overhead have a pretty good chance of making sub commanders decide not to be too active. They have no way to know how experienced the pilots are.
WEXF

[JanSako]

Hunting subs is understandably one of the most frustrating tasks when they are the enemy subs and most rewarding whey you are the one hunting merchies (or CV's) with your own subs.

I have been getting up to 10 'sub reported hit' pop-ups per turn from low flying everything from Nells, Betties, Lillys, Jakes, Sallies & whatever I can get above water. This particular campaign is against the AI so in one turn when I got about 8 of these I wanted to check the damage done by the different size bombs.

Guess what? Not even one of these was a real hit! I checked every sub on the map, none of them had any noticeable damage AND none of them had a 'last hit by' except ones I knew got hit in a surface action against my merchant ships...

My bomber crews are not even close to having 60 ASW skill, but I would have hoped that at least 10% of reported hits would be 'real'. My pilots are back in school.

Oh, and if you use a low flying aircraft @100', they 'seem' to be using (read:improving) their strafing skills, even if attacking a sub!

[WEXF]

Guess what? Not even one of these was a real hit! I checked every sub on the map, none of them had any noticeable damage AND none of them had a 'last hit by' except ones I knew got hit in a surface action against my merchant ships...

My bomber crews are not even close to having 60 ASW skill, but I would have hoped that at least 10% of reported hits would be 'real'. My pilots are back in school.

Oh, and if you use a low flying aircraft @100', they 'seem' to be using (read:improving) their strafing skills, even if attacking a sub!

Many of the reports are likely the exaggerated impressions of the pilots. Take them with a grain of salt. As for setting aircraft at 100' you are right. That almost always only improves strafing skills as that is a form of "sweep" at low altitude and is even what you will get with bomber crews as the planes have machine guns. I usually set my training altitudes at at least 2000' for ASW and higher for other bombing skills.
WEXF

[JanSako]

Oh, I meant to use some planes at 100', they are attack bombers. I was testing how effective they can be at eliminating known subs.

The thing is, 'exaggerated impressions taken with a grain of salt' is expected. Not actually hitting a single thing over 1-200+ reported 'hits' is quite another. Like I said, I used pretty much all types of bombers that the Empire has at the start of the war.
I will have to see what happens when their ASW skill is up to snuff.

How often do your subs get hit by planes?

[WEXF]

How often do your subs get hit by planes?

Not often.
I have wondered why there never is a combat report or animation of an attack by aircraft against a sub? All other types of air attacks are seen in the animations and even sub vs sub attacks are seen.
The only reports of air attacks vs subs tend to be in operations reports.
WEXF

[Macquarrie1999]

Oh, I meant to use some planes at 100', they are attack bombers. I was testing how effective they can be at eliminating known subs.

The thing is, 'exaggerated impressions taken with a grain of salt' is expected. Not actually hitting a single thing over 1-200+ reported 'hits' is quite another. Like I said, I used pretty much all types of bombers that the Empire has at the start of the war.
I will have to see what happens when their ASW skill is up to snuff.

How often do your subs get hit by planes?

Not often. In my current PBEM game I am playing as the Allies and I have had a couple of my subs be hit by Japanese aircraft, but the Japanese bombs are so small they just do some system damage. Aircraft are useful for spotting subs though.

[dr.hal]

I think it clear that the main use of aircraft against subs until later in the war (when effective airborne ASW is implemented), is suppression. A sub forced to dive loses mobility as you all know and thus its ability to strike is reduced. Realistically this is what you want, for it to be rendered impotent. A NICE to have is that its sunk.

[JanSako]

Fully agree with the above.
You want to spot them, harass them & if possible damage them.
Thing is that early Japan has really no other way of damaging subs in deep water due to Type-95's not working there. An allied player will therefore keep his subs in deep water . And since a good allied player will not give a lot of targets for Netties either, figured a 50% nav search will saturate the area enough to make life at least a bit challenging for the enemy subs. As a bonus, a 250 kg bomb will do more than just scratch a sub too! Again, they still need to start hitting stuff first.

I am experimenting a bit with 'Q-ships', meaning I run single xAK's that previously survived a sub-fight & have high XP as sort-of sub traps. With the crappy allied torps they actually have quite a decent chance to damage the attacking sub & it will deplete most of it's torps in a single fight. If you do this one hex off a friendly port, the larger ones can 'usually' survive a single torp hit too.

Obviously once the allied torps improve that tactics is done for.

[Maallon]

I would disagree with this. In my current game as Allies in fall 1942 my opponent has several bomber squadrons that are highly trained in ASW. These consist of G3Ms and D3A1s and they are deadly against subs.
They can carry 250 kg bombs that really hurt if a sub is hit with them.
With those squadrons he was able to establish security zone around his most important bases where no sub can approach.
I can't patrol bases like Truk because my subs would instantly get detected by his NAVS, with a DL of 10/10, and get bombed, often several times in a single phase.

To have an effective ASW you need to commit the amount of resources necessary and choose the correct planes for the job.

[JanSako]

I don't think we are in a disagreement that this should work in a way you describe.

I was asking if it really does & now I have a confirmation that I am on the right track. Pilot training is what is needed now. In the meantime I need to be creative, or patient.

[Sardaukar]

I have found that 50% Naval Search with arcs PLUS 10% ASW without arcs raises ASW rating of pilots quite fast.

Harbour patrols are useful and with bonus that every day they are undocked, they have chance to gain experience. That is also very useful, so I usually have 4 escort ships on ASW patrol in every major port. You can also use Surface Combat TF if wanting to train more ships, but obviously they are not as effective in ASW then (IMHO).

[Moltrey]

I have found that 50% Naval Search with arcs PLUS 10% ASW without arcs raises ASW rating of pilots quite fast.

Harbour patrols are useful and with bonus that every day they are undocked, they have chance to gain experience. That is also very useful, so I usually have 4 escort ships on ASW patrol in every major port. You can also use Surface Combat TF if wanting to train more ships, but obviously they are not as effective in ASW then (IMHO).

Thanks for this tidbit Sardaukar- I have been looking to tweak my airborne search and ASW tasks to simultaneously increase the rate of experience and find more enemy subs, etc. Great idea!

[BBfanboy]

Oh, I meant to use some planes at 100', they are attack bombers. I was testing how effective they can be at eliminating known subs.

The thing is, 'exaggerated impressions taken with a grain of salt' is expected. Not actually hitting a single thing over 1-200+ reported 'hits' is quite another. Like I said, I used pretty much all types of bombers that the Empire has at the start of the war.
I will have to see what happens when their ASW skill is up to snuff.

How often do your subs get hit by planes?

IME, reports of HITs on subs are accurate in only one in 75 or so reports (early war) - a fluke, really. And that is on subs already spotted by naval search (raising DL increases the chances of success in any subsequent attack). The best ASW is a combination of Naval Search, Air ASW and patrolling ASW vessels with 6 or more ASW devices and plenty of ammo. Once a sub is damaged, it is often easier to track and attack again, even with another sub.

[Sardaukar]

Air ASW has not been too effective for me.

Total number of IJN subs sunk so far (Feb 1944) by air is 4...

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