Data sharing among radars and SAMs

[wyskass]

So I know CMO models the comms and data links between entities, but I'm not sure how to use it for strategy or see it in practice.
From my side, it looks like all information between all sensors is shared. A radar tracking a contact seems to allow any other unit to target that contact. Does the network depend on comms links as noted in comms specs and ranges?

More specifically I'm trying to take down a SAM network around an Air Base, and have seen damaged SAM sites with no emissions firing. This implies the other radars provide the targeting. Is that all just one network?
In other words, do I need to take out all radars or is there a way to determine which ones are linked with particular SAM launchers?

[TitaniumTrout]

If a radar detects you it will let others know that you are there. Depending on the SAM system you likely have a search radar and a fire control radar. You could destroy the search radar for a site but if the site across the runway still has search radar they can tell the other one where to look. Now when that site wants to fire they can paint you with the fire control radar and track the SAM. These SAM sites can also have an electro-optical or infrared camera to track targets with at closer range.

If you save the game the moment you're fired upon, open it in the editor and switch sides, you can see how the defenders see your aircraft and how it is detecting you.

Taking out the search radars is the best first step. Fire control radar can be challenging to hit with ARMs as you need to make them fire, which is dangerous, in order to emit.

[thewood1]

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=381357

Towards the bottom of the posted thread, I explain how I build out comms-dependent SAM networks. But it has to be done as part of the scenario building process.

[wyskass]

Yea, I have targeted the longer range radars first, which just made more sense to me. And yes, the FCR radars have been more difficult due to having to sneak in closer and they being intermittent. On occasions from SAM sites thought dead, suddenly launching with no detected emissions.

I've heard the switching sides using editor mode as good advice for understanding a few different mechanisms, so will do that when able.

[thewood1]

One thing to keep in mind is SAM reactions and operations, as with a lot in CMO, is VERY dependent on scenario designer skills and goals. A sophisticated designer that wants to put a lot of work into it can create very realistic-acting SAMs and SAM networks. On the other hand, if the SAMs aren't a core part of the scenario or a less experienced/ambitious designer is involved, the SAMs might just be dropped in and depend on static ROEs to engage you.

The point is that without asking the designer, actually playing the scenario in editor is really the only way to tell how a SAM might react. This is a common issue with asking broad and lacking-context questions. There are hundreds of possible reactions that can be embedded in the scenario.

Specifically about "dead" SAMs launching missiles...Russian SAMs commonly have visual/IR tracking capabilities and a good scenario designer can fool you into doing stupid things with your mens' lives.

[wyskass]

Am currently playing Chains of War campaign, and in the second scenario. Before that, completed all the game included tutorial scenarios and got a good grasp on the mechanics. This is my second real scenario and have been enjoying it.
So am assuming the DLC campaigns are well designed. The other posts I made about PoH of AA and others are from this scenario.
Also, not sure what conclusions to make from level of damage indicators. Can't readily tell if radars or launchers have been taken out. Though usually it seems to be the search radar goes first on an SA-2f or 3b, which goes silent. I've experimented with a couple approaches.. but am thinking a large overwhelming salvo is needed to get a couple through. A low level sneak can work which takes time and can be risky. Cruise missiles mostly suck getting knocked out from afar being slow.
Small armed drones are effective as being practically invisible, but are slow and carry one bomb.

Overall this scenario has the locations well protected with multiple layers and aircraft don't all roll out at once. It's a relatively hard nut to crack, and get good intel on the housed units. Overflew with different capable observers, and only noted 2 aircraft in hangers reported 3 hours earlier and it was quiet so lowered my patrols, only to then have 2 launch.
Similarly with AA, have different radars and SAM ranges, and without unlimited armaments have to choose wisely on the targeting priorities. Also having to choose between AA or Strike loadouts. With strike loadouts being fewer and longer to arm, still have too much AA protecting the Airfields which I need to strike.
On the naval front, killed the required surface ships fairly easily with a patient submarine intercept, but out of the still required 5 Kilos 4 are in port, still with possibly active 2 SAMs, and 1 Kilo somewhere in the ocean I suppose, so have most fleet on a sub hunt patterns.
So there is good variety in targets and needed units, with enough time to require longer planning and loadout choices.

Oh yea, BTW I am hesitant on editor mode on this scenario as I don't want to spoil it for game play, but did a brief check on an early save which was insightful, and did notice at least that I was effectively jamming most of their radars. Didn't look at current active areas though. Will probably review this scenario after finishing and also check out the tutorial ones from the other side to learn more about effects.

[SeaQueen]

By default, the behavior in CMO is that everything is basically part of one big network. That means if something can connect (in the sense that it shares some communications method) to another platform it will. That's probably overly optimistic for various reasons, but since there's not usually data to do something more realistic, it's the default assumption. In reality it would be much more hierarchical, with the picture supplied by the air surveillance (ASV) portions of the IADS feeding up to various echelon C2 nodes, which would manage the EMCON and WCS of their subordinate C2 nodes, the radars and weapons associated with them. In real life the actual C2 hierarchy for the IADS would vary by nation. Iran's probably isn't the same as China's, which probably isn't the same as Russia. Understanding that hierarchy would most likely fall to intelligence organizations, which would use it to feed the targeting process in the event of war. There'd most likely exist assigned sectors for the IADS, radars to control the assigned air space, and C2 nodes to control the sensors and shooters in the space.

It is possible to build an IADS in CMO so that various intermediate echelon command posts can effect the functioning of the IADS network. To do so requires the use of LUA so typically people don't do it, but it can be done. There's also not a lot of data on IADS C2 in the opened source world, so you have to make something up. Lacking inspiration from the real world, that's hard. I'm sure if you dig you can find stuff on the Iraqi network during Desert Storm, though, and use that to construct something interesting. That potentially changes the tactics you might use considerably. After all, if you could "clip the kill chain" by destroying a C2 node, or multiple C2 nodes, you might be able to disable or at least degrade multiple SAM sites. A well constructed IADS has the SAMs not emitting until they're at the advantage. In the mean time the ASV portion handles the air picture. Destroying the ASV portion of the IADS forces the SAMs to use their organic radars instead of relying on the network to cue them. In CMO, though, by default, that usually isn't the case, unless they're weird (like me).

That leaves you with taking out the engagement radars on the SAM sites. If you can do that, they can't shoot. On an SA-21 that'd be the GRAVE STONE, not the CHEESE BOARD. Higher echelon radars might be things like BIG BIRD or what not. Taking those out might degrade the SAM site, but they won't deny it a launch opportunity.

I hope that helps.

[wyskass]

Ya, thanks, that adds more understanding to the way the system works. As you described real world systems, that's mostly the assumptions I started with. Expecting to figure out how a communications network was connected and what nodes are needed to break most effectively. I assumed with the detailed communication specs in the game, that would be modeled, but then realized that I would see that on my end, which I didn't.
I would also think low end AA radars wouldn't be able to do much targeting for a different SAM system some distance away, as they seem very unrelated systems.
Yes, I can see about the level of effort to model a more complex IADS by designers.

But that just leaves the question of what relevance if any comm systems play in the game? There are different ranges and frequencies, but if all info is instant shared magically, are those functional at all?
It's fine either way, just wondering if any attention is worth paying to that.

[SeaQueen]

You can build something similar to the real thing if you're using LUA, it's just that most people don't (I do for my personal scenarios, but I'm weird). Communications and C2 hierarchy aren't completely irrelevant, but they're far more robust in CMO than they often are in real life. It's also important to recognize that building up a picture of the C2 hierarchy (however you choose to depict it) would probably be an intelligence process beyond the scope of the game. If there's a specific IADS you want to model and feel like you understand from some data you have, that would be one thing. It'd be another thing to try to build up that information in real time.

Frequency bands, channels, etc. are all in there and modelled, but the problem is that just because your radio COULD tune into a given network doesn't mean it would (or that the operator even knows what frequency you're on). That tends to lend itself to an overly robust set of connections between platforms. It is possible to leave a unit isolated from anything but what its organic sensors can provide, it's just very difficult. You're more likely to see the "NO COMMS" flag due to platform damage than jamming. Like I said, though, using LUA you can model it by effect. I have some code in the LUA legion which allows for that.

One thing I think might improve the game is to be able to edit the networks that platforms exist on. That way you could scope down the number of possible information pathways, and it would make C2 nodes more important. You would also be able to see the advantages of a more robust network with alternate C2 pathways over a more strictly hierarchical system where there are few or not backup C2 pathways.

[fatgreta1066]

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=381357

Towards the bottom of the posted thread, I explain how I build out comms-dependent SAM networks. But it has to be done as part of the scenario building process.

Are you sure that's the right link? I may have missed it, but in reading your replies I didn't see one that seems to explain this, unless you're referring to the part about a cell phone on a hill?

[thewood1]

You are right. Grabbed the wrong link. Can't find it now.