Command Range
Moderator: Joel Billings
Command Range
Am I correct that the command range is the distance between a HQ and a unit (in chain of command), NOT between HQs?
Re: Command Range
Yes and hopefully you've noticed the errata in section 15.5.4 with regard to this subject. The Command Efficiency mode (ctrl-L) is a good visual indicator of how this plays out on the map.
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
Re: Command Range
Thanks the advice.
Section 15.5.4. The Example
The unit from the Corps is within 5 hexes. Thus the modifier is 0.
The unit from the Army is 15 hexes. It needs to subtract 10. Thus, it should be read as (15-10)/2 = 5/2 = 2 rounded down instead of 10/2 as shown in the example. Those examples followed, all modifiers are subtracted from 5.
If I follows the clarification, they should be:
Corps: Within 5 hexes = 0.
Army: 15 hexes away, i.e. (15-10)/2 = 2 rounded down.
Army Group: 20 hexes away, i.e. (20-15)/3 = 1 rounded down.
OKH: 85 hexes away, i.e. (85-20)/4 = 16 rounded down.
Is my understand correct? Otherwise, please indicate.
If I want to get those modifiers to zero, the unit has to be 11 hexes from the Army HQ, 17 hexes from Army Group and 23 hexes from OKH. Given the amount of units controlled under HQs, these are impracticable to keep all but one. I always think that anything added to the base value is a kind of penalty which the player should avoid. I can do it in WitE. This is no point to keep the distance between the HQs and unit within the command range for improving the chance of passing the leader check. Notwithstanding from the above, there is one major reason to keep the command range. It is the last paragraph of 4.13.3. How do we know the distance of a unit and a high command? WitE2 does not provide any facility to help the player to determine it - a player burden.
Section 15.5.4. The Example
The unit from the Corps is within 5 hexes. Thus the modifier is 0.
The unit from the Army is 15 hexes. It needs to subtract 10. Thus, it should be read as (15-10)/2 = 5/2 = 2 rounded down instead of 10/2 as shown in the example. Those examples followed, all modifiers are subtracted from 5.
If I follows the clarification, they should be:
Corps: Within 5 hexes = 0.
Army: 15 hexes away, i.e. (15-10)/2 = 2 rounded down.
Army Group: 20 hexes away, i.e. (20-15)/3 = 1 rounded down.
OKH: 85 hexes away, i.e. (85-20)/4 = 16 rounded down.
Is my understand correct? Otherwise, please indicate.
If I want to get those modifiers to zero, the unit has to be 11 hexes from the Army HQ, 17 hexes from Army Group and 23 hexes from OKH. Given the amount of units controlled under HQs, these are impracticable to keep all but one. I always think that anything added to the base value is a kind of penalty which the player should avoid. I can do it in WitE. This is no point to keep the distance between the HQs and unit within the command range for improving the chance of passing the leader check. Notwithstanding from the above, there is one major reason to keep the command range. It is the last paragraph of 4.13.3. How do we know the distance of a unit and a high command? WitE2 does not provide any facility to help the player to determine it - a player burden.
Re: Command Range
Your calculations seem correct to me. I don't think you need to try that hard to keep the penalties to zero as they accumulate very slowly, especially for higher HQs. For instance OKH starts with a base value of 80. If you are at a range of 85 instead of 23 then Halder's admin rolls will have a chance of 9/(80 + 16) = 9.4% instead of 9/80 = 11.3%. This is not a huge drop for being close to maximum command range.HOTEC wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:31 am If I want to get those modifiers to zero, the unit has to be 11 hexes from the Army HQ, 17 hexes from Army Group and 23 hexes from OKH. Given the amount of units controlled under HQs, these are impracticable to keep all but one. I always think that anything added to the base value is a kind of penalty which the player should avoid. I can do it in WitE. This is no point to keep the distance between the HQs and unit within the command range for improving the chance of passing the leader check. Notwithstanding from the above, there is one major reason to keep the command range. It is the last paragraph of 4.13.3. How do we know the distance of a unit and a high command? WitE2 does not provide any facility to help the player to determine it - a player burden.
The maximum ranges in 21.11.4 are much more serious and you should try hard to keep within these if possible. Not only will they take away your Assault HQ bonus as you mentioned but I believe they will fail all leadership rolls and support squads assignments from that HQ.
It's not that hard to estimate maximum range from high command. For instance, OKH starts in hex (167,152) and has a maximum command range of 90. So you need to look for hex (257, 152). If you press "h" the game will help you find it. It's about halfway between Voronezh and Stalingrad. If you zoom out a lot and imagine a circle centered on OKH and going halfway between Voronezh and Stalingrad you'll see that most realistic '41 targets are within that circle. But you will need to move OKH a bit forward if you attack Rostov or Sevastopol. A lot of people also put OKH in Berlin, in that case they should probably consider moving it forward when they get close to D-town or Kursk.
"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak" - John Adams
Re: Command Range
It may not be a matter of quantity. I would ask the player to pay a price for non-compliance but never to pay less for compliance.
As the non-compliance of command range is a cost as mentioned in 4.13.3 that cannot be simply ignored, I have looked into it and seek your comments.
One of the properties of a circle is a constant distance between its center and perimeter. This is the same as a hexagon as shown in the Attachment A. The distance between two hexes in a hexagon-based map by sqrt(sq(x)+sq(y)) does not work out. The calculation is a matter of one hex to be set as center and the other to be determined on the perimeter of an imaged hexagon. Although it is precise, it is necessary to engage Excel hand in hand.
Another is a screen-rolling method. An example in the Attachment B shows how to measure the distance between a HQ and a unit as circled. It is to keep tracing hexes from the unit in NE direction until which its y value is equal to the HQ's y value. Read the x value and subtract it from the HQ's x value. The result is the distance between the HQ and the unit. As the WitE2 does not provide the diagional scrolling, it may be easy to lose the trace when a lot of scrollings are required. Furthermore, it lacks of generalization.
As shown in the Attachment C, the unit would be within the command range under all levels of commands if it complies with all conditions as follows:
distance between unit and Corps <= 5 hexes; and
distance between Corps and Army <= 10 hexes; and
distance between Amry and Army Group <= 30 hexes; and
distance between Army Group and High Command <= 45 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the Army, the distance between unit and Army <= 15 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the Army Group, the distance between unit and Army Group <= 45 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the High Command, the distance between unit and High Command <= 90 hexes.
The distance between the units can be seen in the unit panel as indicated by the yellow arrow.
The Attachment D shows that Command Report assists to examine cases in a more efficent manner.
It is not uncommon that a unit is less than 5 hexes from the Corps or the Corps is more than 10 hexes from the Army, a non-optimum scenario. Then the followings should be taken into account of:
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army <= 15 hexes;
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army + distance between Army and Army Group <= 45 hexes; and
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army + distance between Army and Army Group + distance between Army Group and High Command <= 90 hexes.
When there is a case of the optimum ranges exceeding such as the scenario A shown in the Attachment E, only those units within the hatched area are out of the command range. Under the same readouts, all units under the scenario B are, however, within the command range. Thus the violation of the optimum range does not necessary lead to a conclusion of exceeding the command range. After all, it is not the exact method like those calculated by formula.
It should be noted that the formula to calculate the command range of the unit to its respective HQs are not so sophisticated as to consume a flash of second of computer cycles. As the compilance of command range is one of the critical requirements for 4.13.3., I am surprise that the unit-HQ are not shown direct to player instead of an indirect approach by means of the DtHQ in the Command Report and the distance between units in the unit detail panel as described above. DtHQ and the others are lean and informative well suite in WitE. However, the specifications are substantially changed in WitE2. Thus, a new set of presentations should be critically considered and reviewed.
As the non-compliance of command range is a cost as mentioned in 4.13.3 that cannot be simply ignored, I have looked into it and seek your comments.
One of the properties of a circle is a constant distance between its center and perimeter. This is the same as a hexagon as shown in the Attachment A. The distance between two hexes in a hexagon-based map by sqrt(sq(x)+sq(y)) does not work out. The calculation is a matter of one hex to be set as center and the other to be determined on the perimeter of an imaged hexagon. Although it is precise, it is necessary to engage Excel hand in hand.
Another is a screen-rolling method. An example in the Attachment B shows how to measure the distance between a HQ and a unit as circled. It is to keep tracing hexes from the unit in NE direction until which its y value is equal to the HQ's y value. Read the x value and subtract it from the HQ's x value. The result is the distance between the HQ and the unit. As the WitE2 does not provide the diagional scrolling, it may be easy to lose the trace when a lot of scrollings are required. Furthermore, it lacks of generalization.
As shown in the Attachment C, the unit would be within the command range under all levels of commands if it complies with all conditions as follows:
distance between unit and Corps <= 5 hexes; and
distance between Corps and Army <= 10 hexes; and
distance between Amry and Army Group <= 30 hexes; and
distance between Army Group and High Command <= 45 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the Army, the distance between unit and Army <= 15 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the Army Group, the distance between unit and Army Group <= 45 hexes.
If the unit is subordinate to the High Command, the distance between unit and High Command <= 90 hexes.
The distance between the units can be seen in the unit panel as indicated by the yellow arrow.
The Attachment D shows that Command Report assists to examine cases in a more efficent manner.
It is not uncommon that a unit is less than 5 hexes from the Corps or the Corps is more than 10 hexes from the Army, a non-optimum scenario. Then the followings should be taken into account of:
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army <= 15 hexes;
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army + distance between Army and Army Group <= 45 hexes; and
distance between unit and Corps + distance between Corps and Army + distance between Army and Army Group + distance between Army Group and High Command <= 90 hexes.
When there is a case of the optimum ranges exceeding such as the scenario A shown in the Attachment E, only those units within the hatched area are out of the command range. Under the same readouts, all units under the scenario B are, however, within the command range. Thus the violation of the optimum range does not necessary lead to a conclusion of exceeding the command range. After all, it is not the exact method like those calculated by formula.
It should be noted that the formula to calculate the command range of the unit to its respective HQs are not so sophisticated as to consume a flash of second of computer cycles. As the compilance of command range is one of the critical requirements for 4.13.3., I am surprise that the unit-HQ are not shown direct to player instead of an indirect approach by means of the DtHQ in the Command Report and the distance between units in the unit detail panel as described above. DtHQ and the others are lean and informative well suite in WitE. However, the specifications are substantially changed in WitE2. Thus, a new set of presentations should be critically considered and reviewed.
Re: Command Range
You know, there's a handy dandy couple of numbers (1/5 for example)in the selected unit counter that says how far away you are from the HQ to which it is attached, and what's the maximum distance before penalties are applied...
Re: Command Range
I'm certain that has nothing to do with his point! What his point is, I don't know, but I'm certain that's not it.Jango32 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:41 pm You know, there's a handy dandy couple of numbers (1/5 for example)in the selected unit counter that says how far away you are from the HQ to which it is attached, and what's the maximum distance before penalties are applied...
SCPO USN (Ret.)