[Discussion] Stock distribution and dumping

[MichaelJ007]

I see there has been a lot of noise on Steam forums about ships dumping stock into space.

My view is:
1. So what. There is an infinite supply at source. Resources dont run out.

2. As long as extraction > consumption your storage WILL ventually become saturated no matter how much storage you have.

3. It's an indicator you dont have enough pops or colonies (or you have too many mines).

Having said that, the economy is largely a growth economy. You want to keep expanding until you cannot grow extraction anymore. If you are sitting on stockpiles, with idle freighters. Expand.

The only thing you need to be careful of is too much concentration of population in one region of the galaxy. You can have multiple colonies in a system or cluster, but as the pop grows you will put increasing pressure on distribution until you cannot keep those colonies supplied, and they start losing development. So what you want, is to expand sideways, and limit vertical expansion.

The system limit ofc is the galaxy. If you take over the entire galaxy, your population levels may exceed your ability to extract or distribute resources. You won't see stock being dumped into space anymore, but you will see planets starving.

Then you will need the Thanos solution.

[MichaelJ007]

If anything, there can be a larger gap between the 'maintain' and 'storage cap', with possible an 'enough now' level in the middle where the planet stops requesting resources. This will hopefully reduce the number of trips that are only being done to top up the local supply.

[Franky007]

I disagree with the OP. If the supply system was more efficient, we should need less freighters.
With less freighters the game would have less lags.

When i set the caslon level to 0 in my mines; after a few minutes the flow of supply is better, because all the freighters carying caslon are free to carry other resources.

And i agree with @MichaelJ007, we should have a middle level where resources are not requested.

[MichaelJ007]

I disagree with the OP. If the supply system was more efficient, we should need less freighters.
With less freighters the game would have less lags.

When i set the caslon level to 0 in my mines;

Thanks for the reply.

For your first point, if we had fewer freighters, the storage would just take longer to hit cap, then we would see the same behavior, and we would be making less money from the PE building and retrofitting ships . Switching off the trip requests before cap would be a good enough solution.

I like your idea on setting the caslon level lower in your random mines. That should reduce trips to spread caslon all over the place.

What I currently do is manage it by varying the number of cargo holds. I use larger mining stations with multiple cargo holds for my 'Caslon Mines'. For other mining stations, I will use a smaller station, and limit it to one small cargo hold. I periodically go through my list of mining stations and retrofit the Caslon mines to my preferred 'Caslon Depot' design.

[Spidey]

What I do to handle this, and it's not optimal at all, is rename all my caslon mines to use "*" as prefix. Then all other mines get some other symbol, say "+". Those mines also have automatic stock switched off and caslon stock set to 0.

It's some work, of course, but this way all caslon mines come first when I sort by name, then all fixed non-caslon mines, and then colonies and new unfixed mines.

And this way I can add plenty of storage to all mines and let all mines auto-refit since gas mines and dry mines are identical. Sure, that wireless recharge item is wasted on the dry mines but it's one piece of equipment, so not really a big deal.

Edit: Just read that remote refueling doesn't work on mines. Eeek. I'd have thought they'd allow refuel without docking but I've never paid enough attention, I guess. One less thing to stick on mines.

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

What I do to handle this, and it's not optimal at all, is rename all my caslon mines to use "*" as prefix. Then all other mines get some other symbol, say "+". Those mines also have automatic stock switched off and caslon stock set to 0.

I have a question. If you have caslon stock set to zero on all non-caslon mining stations, how do they get fuel to run their reactors? I am not being snarky, I am asking if you have noticed any issues with energy collectors not getting enough energy to run the mining station when far away from the star.

Also, can anyone shed light on if the dumping only occurs if the mining station cargo bays are otherwise full? The reason I ask is if the freighters always dump when there is more caslon on the freighter than the mining station wants (i.e. never giving more if there is room in cargo) then we are losing caslon on most every delivery no matter what the limit is set to.

[Spidey]

I have not paid attention to whether they get refueled over time, to be honest. They tend to start with a full tank and then maintain energy with energy collection, so the only fuel drain is from combat, which really shouldn't happen too much. And if they run dry then it only appears to affect weapons. I have not noticed that they stop mining, though I'll grant that maybe I haven't paid enough attention.

I'd go for a sensible caslon reserve just for the RP factor if the freighter network could manage it and it wouldn't be even more fiddly work with the resource menu, but just putting a 0 in the box is less agonizingly slow and stops the mine from screaming into the network for caslon deliveries.

[Franky007]

Also, can anyone shed light on if the dumping only occurs if the mining station cargo bays are otherwise full? The reason I ask is if the freighters always dump when there is more caslon on the freighter than the mining station wants (i.e. never giving more if there is room in cargo) then we are losing caslon on most every delivery no matter what the limit is set to.

The dumping occurs when the cargo exceed the limit set, not only when the mining station is full.
And the ship re-refuel AFTER unloading it's Caslon; putting the mining station immediately in need of more Caslon.
It'a a never ending loop...

[dostillevi]

Fundamentally, the issue is that if resource scarcity isn't a meaningful aspect of the game, then the entire civilian economy of individual freighters and mining stations is basically meaningless. The civilian economy is a key differentiator between this game and it's peers, so from my perspective, having meaningful resource scarcity is key to what makes this game enjoyable and more complex than others I could play.

So resource dumping, in that context, signifies an economy where resource scarcity isn't a problem. It's so little of a problem that the following is routine:

1. A station dips below the desired amount of a resource by a few ticks, and requests to be restocked immediately. E.g. a mining station has 2389 of 2400 caslon and orders a restock.
2. A freighter of any size picks up the order, jettisons whatever cargo it might have been holding (including any Caslon), and generally picks up the resource at a Caslon mining station. Note that there's no meaningful use of planets or starbases as economic hubs and stores of resources - most of the time resources are delivered directly from mining station to destination.
3. The amount picked up by the freighter varies, but is always somewhat more than was initially requested, presumably to account for anticipated continued demand. In the case of Caslon, the amount picked up is often an order of magnitude more than the amount requested. In our example our freighter might easily pick up 800 Caslon.
4. The frighter burns caslon as it flies to the destination station. It burns roughly 11 Caslon doing so in our example (hint, this isn't the first time the station has been short 11 caslon).
5. The freighter drops off 11 caslon, delivering exactly too the amount the station wants on hand. Instead of having two separate values, the station has one that represents both the amount it desires, and the amount below which a shortage is triggered.
6. The freighter tops off it's tanks from the station before leaving - the station is now short 11 Caslon.
7. The freighter sitting outside the station might even pick up the station's new order, dump it's 789 remaining Caslon, and fly off to fulfill the new shortage.

This is most egregious with Caslon but should be a concern in general - if it isn't, there's no meaningful gameplay impact from having a civilian economy at all. There are several impacts of this behavior:

A. Freighters are constantly occupied with delivering very small amounts of resources to stations, since a station will trigger a shortage as soon as it uses any of it's stockpile. This means fewer freighters in circulation to deliver to shipyards and planets that consume lots of resources.
B. Consumption appears to be much higher than it actually is. Turning off Caslon reserves at mining stations will drastically cut down on the Caslon demand, even though those stations aren't consuming Caslon themselves unless they're under attack. This incentivizes the player to build more mining stations than needed.
C. Shipyards are frequently without Caslon, and new ships need to immediately travel to a Caslon mining station (often full) and refuel there.
D. The overall quantity of resources in the game has been balanced around dumping. Most empires are swimming in resources, but have trouble getting them to where they're needed.

The solution is quite simple:
1. All stations have two thresholds for each resource used - the quantity that triggers a shortage and a delivery request, and the quantity that the station wants to receive. The station should receive much more than the shortage amount, so that freighters need to make fewer runs, with more resources, and there are fewer shortages for small amounts of goods.
2. Stations should be allowed to go over-capacity. If a freighter shows up with more than the station's desired amount, it should take it all. If this pushes the station over it's cargo limit, build consequences around that instead of spacing the excess. Generally though, stations should keep a reserve of empty space to accommodate freighter overages without going over capacity, and station storage amounts should be balanced around this concept.
3. Freighters should prioritize balancing resource availability at planets and stations, and then deliver resources from those hubs to other locations when demand is triggered. This hub and spoke model is significantly more efficient than freighters traveling directly from mining stations to mining stations. This also turns planets into true trade hubs, rather than simply destinations for retrofitting and construction. I think this might go part of the way to fixing trade income.
4. Interstellar relations should respect the hub and spoke model. Basic trade agreements should only allow freighters to trade goods at hubs, while an advanced level of trade might allow another empire to pick up resources directly from mining stations.

With all this in place, the amount of freighters produced by the civilian economy should drop significantly, the amount of resources "consumed" should drop significantly, and the amount of resources generally available to be mined could be reduced significantly. All of this increases game performance, improves realism, and adds to the strategic layer of the game.

[Dudok22]

When you say "resources don't run out" it's not totally accurate. You are right that the sources never run out, but you need the resources at the destination to have any use of them which is exactly why wasting freighters and caslon to do absolutely inefficient runs and causing never ending shortages of few units is so painful.

The simplest fix would be to have 2 values of wanted and minimum amount of resources at any location. Wanted= station tries to keep the stock at this value, not allow to reserve by other etc. while the minimum should be when the shortage is declared to the civilian economy. This might even be an automatic 50% 30% or whatever % of the original value in the game logic. also if the freighter could store the whole cargo load into the station up to the maximum capacity it would lessen the frequency of resupply runs

[secondcircle]

Fundamentally, the issue is that if resource scarcity isn't a meaningful aspect of the game, then the entire civilian economy of individual freighters and mining stations is basically meaningless. The civilian economy is a key differentiator between this game and it's peers, so from my perspective, having meaningful resource scarcity is key to what makes this game enjoyable and more complex than others I could play.

So resource dumping, in that context, signifies an economy where resource scarcity isn't a problem. It's so little of a problem that the following is routine:

1. A station dips below the desired amount of a resource by a few ticks, and requests to be restocked immediately. E.g. a mining station has 2389 of 2400 caslon and orders a restock.
2. A freighter of any size picks up the order, jettisons whatever cargo it might have been holding (including any Caslon), and generally picks up the resource at a Caslon mining station. Note that there's no meaningful use of planets or starbases as economic hubs and stores of resources - most of the time resources are delivered directly from mining station to destination.
3. The amount picked up by the freighter varies, but is always somewhat more than was initially requested, presumably to account for anticipated continued demand. In the case of Caslon, the amount picked up is often an order of magnitude more than the amount requested. In our example our freighter might easily pick up 800 Caslon.
4. The frighter burns caslon as it flies to the destination station. It burns roughly 11 Caslon doing so in our example (hint, this isn't the first time the station has been short 11 caslon).
5. The freighter drops off 11 caslon, delivering exactly too the amount the station wants on hand. Instead of having two separate values, the station has one that represents both the amount it desires, and the amount below which a shortage is triggered.
6. The freighter tops off it's tanks from the station before leaving - the station is now short 11 Caslon.
7. The freighter sitting outside the station might even pick up the station's new order, dump it's 789 remaining Caslon, and fly off to fulfill the new shortage.

This is most egregious with Caslon but should be a concern in general - if it isn't, there's no meaningful gameplay impact from having a civilian economy at all. There are several impacts of this behavior:

A. Freighters are constantly occupied with delivering very small amounts of resources to stations, since a station will trigger a shortage as soon as it uses any of it's stockpile. This means fewer freighters in circulation to deliver to shipyards and planets that consume lots of resources.
B. Consumption appears to be much higher than it actually is. Turning off Caslon reserves at mining stations will drastically cut down on the Caslon demand, even though those stations aren't consuming Caslon themselves unless they're under attack. This incentivizes the player to build more mining stations than needed.
C. Shipyards are frequently without Caslon, and new ships need to immediately travel to a Caslon mining station (often full) and refuel there.
D. The overall quantity of resources in the game has been balanced around dumping. Most empires are swimming in resources, but have trouble getting them to where they're needed.

The solution is quite simple:
1. All stations have two thresholds for each resource used - the quantity that triggers a shortage and a delivery request, and the quantity that the station wants to receive. The station should receive much more than the shortage amount, so that freighters need to make fewer runs, with more resources, and there are fewer shortages for small amounts of goods.
2. Stations should be allowed to go over-capacity. If a freighter shows up with more than the station's desired amount, it should take it all. If this pushes the station over it's cargo limit, build consequences around that instead of spacing the excess. Generally though, stations should keep a reserve of empty space to accommodate freighter overages without going over capacity, and station storage amounts should be balanced around this concept.
3. Freighters should prioritize balancing resource availability at planets and stations, and then deliver resources from those hubs to other locations when demand is triggered. This hub and spoke model is significantly more efficient than freighters traveling directly from mining stations to mining stations. This also turns planets into true trade hubs, rather than simply destinations for retrofitting and construction. I think this might go part of the way to fixing trade income.
4. Interstellar relations should respect the hub and spoke model. Basic trade agreements should only allow freighters to trade goods at hubs, while an advanced level of trade might allow another empire to pick up resources directly from mining stations.

With all this in place, the amount of freighters produced by the civilian economy should drop significantly, the amount of resources "consumed" should drop significantly, and the amount of resources generally available to be mined could be reduced significantly. All of this increases game performance, improves realism, and adds to the strategic layer of the game.

This would be a wonderful change. Combined with just much less resource's in general, mining rate should get cut to 1/4.

[dostillevi]

This would be a wonderful change. Combined with just much less resource's in general, mining rate should get cut to 1/4.

There's a mod that reduces mining rate, and even with that I never have trouble with resource scarcity, at least through the mid-game.