[1.0.3.9] little Zenox Ship-Design-Bugs

[frankycl]

In the design-templates for some the Zenox ships are some little bugs that make it impossible to use the default engine-component-bays (or don't limit them at all):

- <ShipHullId>572, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>2 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>581, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>2 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>582, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>576, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>599, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>4 for 5 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>617, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 5 (!) engine-component-bays

I'd guess that there are several more, but I haven't tested this further more. Those are only the ones I've come across, so far.

This not only makes it impossible to use their full engine-potential (in cases where the limit is below the number of given component-bays - see above), but also cripples them optically - like e.g.:

Heavy Escort - 2 engines

Heavy Escort_2 engines.png (1.15 MiB) Viewed 545 times

With 3 engines it would/will look like:
Heavy Escort - 3 engines

Heavy Escort_3 engines.png (1.02 MiB) Viewed 545 times

I also have reported the bugs to the Devs via the officially form, too, in order to include the needed fixes in a future update (whenever this will be).

[dostillevi]

In the design-templates for some the Zenox ships are some little bugs that make it impossible to use the default engine-component-bays (or don't limit them at all):

- <ShipHullId>572, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>2 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>581, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>2 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>582, <Role>Escort -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>576, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 3 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>599, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>4 for 5 (!) engine-component-bays
- <ShipHullId>617, <Role>ExplorationShipt -> <EngineLimit>-1 for 5 (!) engine-component-bays

I've wondered if there's meant to be separate limits for vectoring and main engines. At least playing the Zenox, I've never found a scenario where I'd prefer a vectoring engine over a main engine. Maybe those engine limits are accurate, but the vectoring limit isn't being handled separately? Just a thought.

[frankycl]

I've wondered if there's meant to be separate limits for vectoring and main engines. At least playing the Zenox, I've never found a scenario where I'd prefer a vectoring engine over a main engine. Maybe those engine limits are accurate, but the vectoring limit isn't being handled separately? Just a thought.

No, the engine limits have an effect on ALL kind of engines, because they limit the default design in the way that you (or the AI) can't use the regarding component bay at all (the designer tells you that you have reached the engine limit if you try this).

[Lunalis]

they have one engine more because of symetry.

lets say they have 7 engines:
OOO O OOO

now if you start adding engines to the design it goes for example like this.

OOO X OOO
OOX O XOO
OOX X XOO
OXX O XXO
OXX X XXO
XXX O XXX

with X being the engine.
so with every even amount of engines they go to the side and dont use the middle slot.
and when the engines are uneven they use the middle slot for one.

[frankycl]

they have one engine more because of symetry.

lets say they have 7 engines:
OOO O OOO

now if you start adding engines to the design it goes for example like this.

OOO X OOO
OOX O XOO
OOX X XOO
OXX O XXO
OXX X XXO
XXX O XXX

with X being the engine.
so with every even amount of engines they go to the side and dont use the middle slot.
and when the engines are uneven they use the middle slot for one.

So what ? - This only means the fixes have to be uneven amounts, too - like 3 and 5 are uneven, no ?

EDIT: The problem is the limitation, not the symetry (since you can also only use 2 engines (without the middle one) if the engine limit is 3) - This symetry-thing only means that with an uneven number of component bays you can't use one (or more) on the side and one in the middle with an even number of engines (!) - and this is automatically used by the designer if you try to choose the middle component bay additionally to the only use of one side of the ship. )

[dostillevi]

I've wondered if there's meant to be separate limits for vectoring and main engines. At least playing the Zenox, I've never found a scenario where I'd prefer a vectoring engine over a main engine. Maybe those engine limits are accurate, but the vectoring limit isn't being handled separately? Just a thought.

No, the engine limits have an effect on ALL kind of engines, because they limit the default design in the way that you (or the AI) can't use the regarding component bay at all (the designer tells you that you have reached the engine limit if you try this).

Yes I understand that's how it functions now, what I'm suggesting is there might be (or should be) separate limits for vector (ideally no limit) vs thrust engines, and that if such a limit does exist now it could be mis-implemented, such that vectoring engines are being limited by the main thruster limit as well, leaving no opportunity to fill out the available engine slots.

Right now I have to choose between thrusting and vectoring, and I can't see a scenario where vectoring provides a meaningful benefit over thrust. If Vectoring engines had a separate, or no, limit, I would be trading vectoring engines against all other components, instead of vectoring engines against thrust engines, and that's a much more interesting tradeoff where I might choose vectoring instead of something else.

[frankycl]

Yes I understand that's how it functions now, what I'm suggesting is there might be (or should be) separate limits for vector (ideally no limit) vs thrust engines, and that if such a limit does exist now it could be mis-implemented, such that vectoring engines are being limited by the main thruster limit as well, leaving no opportunity to fill out the available engine slots.

Right now I have to choose between thrusting and vectoring, and I can't see a scenario where vectoring provides a meaningful benefit over thrust. If Vectoring engines had a separate, or no, limit, I would be trading vectoring engines against all other components, instead of vectoring engines against thrust engines, and that's a much more interesting tradeoff where I might choose vectoring instead of something else.

Well, I don't know much about engine-types or -values, but firstly I know that there are already some guys that had tried some things/mods with these kind of topics; - maybe you can look there / ask them for some help with your ideas ?
And secondly I know that you can alter such things in the ComponentDefinitions.xml (and maybe you could this way provide a mod without any vector-engines (?)) - have you tried that already ?